Scottish Independence

[Broccoli Dog]

Devo max certainly won't be an option if we vote yes. It may be an option if we vote no.

I have heard reports of more jam becoming available at some point tomorrow.

[Burma]

I have heard reports of more jam becoming available at some point tomorrow.

Flavour to be discussed at a poin TBD.

But some people who have zero authority to offer such things have "pledged" that they will make it happen........so thats all right then.

[doulikefish]

Looks like osbourne knows the games up on tv,seemingly they are creatng another powerhouse in the north to rival london

Yip hs3 between manchester and leeds is now the north of the uk

[the jambo-rocker]

Not gonna lie, this high speed rail sounds more idealistic than Devo Max does.

How do we solve problems? Build a shiny, new mode of transport. I'm sure some similar expensive, vanity project like that hasn't completely backfired before.

[doulikefish]

I believe the leaflets from westminster (its for scottish people to decide) are dropping on door steps in the near future,you can post them back at this freepost address

Better Together, Freepost, RTAU-2CRB-TELS, 5 Blythswood Square, Glasgow, G2 4AD

[bendan]

lolwut?

You made spurious claims (amid your narrative of negativity) about literacy and numeracy. After being utterly owned on that, you've now decided that other countries have a "flatter" performance profile and this is because they have a more "equal" society?

Izzat so? Got any evidence for this? What is the definition of "flatter"?

My definition of a flatter performance profile is one where the gap between the performance of, say, the top 10% of students and the worst 10% of students is not as pronounced as in some other countries. For example, in country A the top 10% score 570 points on average and the bottom 10% score 430, whereas in country B the scores might be 600 and 400. Country A has the flatter performance profile. Hope this helps.

The UK has quite a lot of schools with fantastic academic performance. Unfortunately, most are in the private sector. I'm surprised you disagree so strongly with my only point on education, which was that the attainment of the lowest 20 odd percent is not good at all. Even among the many No voting people I know in Edinburgh there is general agreement on that point.

We agree at least that Scotland has good universities. Why do you think this doesn't translate into higher incomes and productivity?

[H_B]

which was that the attainment of the lowest 20 odd percent is not good at all. Even among the many No voting people I know in Edinburgh there is general agreement on that point.

You said we couldn't consider that we were doing "well" because of this,

Do you agree that the Scandinavian countries also cannot claim to be doing "well" given their educational problems?

Is anyone doing "well"?

[H_B]

Why do you think this doesn't translate into higher incomes and productivity?

Higher incomes and productivity versus where?

[Ad Lib]

My definition of a flatter performance profile is one where the gap between the performance of, say, the top 10% of students and the worst 10% of students is not as pronounced as in some other countries. For example, in country A the top 10% score 570 points on average and the bottom 10% score 430, whereas in country B the scores might be 600 and 400. Country A has the flatter performance profile. Hope this helps.

The UK has quite a lot of schools with fantastic academic performance. Unfortunately, most are in the private sector. I'm surprised you disagree so strongly with my only point on education, which was that the attainment of the lowest 20 odd percent is not good at all. Even among the many No voting people I know in Edinburgh there is general agreement on that point.

We agree at least that Scotland has good universities. Why do you think this doesn't translate into higher incomes and productivity?

You'd rather have a society where everyone was mediocre than where at least some were fucking outstanding and some dreadful? Thank goodness no one with any actual power agrees with you.

[Tio Pepe]

I believe the leaflets from westminster (its for scottish people to decide) are dropping on door steps in the near future,you can post them back at this freepost address

Better Together, Freepost, RTAU-2CRB-TELS, 5 Blythswood Square, Glasgow, G2 4AD

Why would you want to do that?

If I don't like a political campaign leaflet, or even if I do and have finished with it, it goes in the rycycling bin. It would be nothing other than childishness or spite to try and deplete a campaign's funds by adopting the behaviour you suggest.

[bendan]

You'd rather have a society where everyone was mediocre than where at least some were fucking outstanding and some dreadful? Thank goodness no one with any actual power agrees with you.

I've made no such claim. I have only claimed that the educational attainment of the lowest 20% is very poor. The example above is simply to show why the data H_B linked to, even if you considered it useful (and I don't), does not disprove my point about the lowest 20%. For the record, as you are clearly struggling here, I would like to live in a society where state schools produce at least competent levels of literacy and numeracy at the bottom. If we fail to do this, I don't think we are doing well, as the cost of that failure is huge. That requires economic and cultural changes, not just tinkering with education.

You know, Ad Lib, I admire your posts on legal matters. You clearly have a great deal of knowledge on many of the matters that have been discussed on here. I doubt I'm the only one who has noticed, however, that the quality of your posts falls off a cliff whenever you veer from that area.

[Ad Lib]

I've made no such claim. I have only claimed that the educational attainment of the lowest 20% is very poor. The example above is simply to show why the data H_B linked to, even if you considered it useful (and I don't), does not disprove my point about the lowest 20%. For the record, as you are clearly struggling here, I would like to live in a society where state schools produce at least competent levels of literacy and numeracy at the bottom. If we fail to do this, I don't think we are doing well, as the cost of that failure is huge. That requires economic and cultural changes, not just tinkering with education.

You know, Ad Lib, I admire your posts on legal matters. You clearly have a great deal of knowledge on many of the matters that have been discussed on here. I doubt I'm the only one who has noticed, however, that the quality of your posts falls off a cliff whenever you veer from that area.

You are literally arguing that societies are better if they have fewer literate people as long as more of those literate people are fairly affluent. Forgive me if I find this absurd.

[renton]

You are literally arguing that societies are better if they have fewer literate people as long as more of those literate people are fairly affluent. Forgive me if I find this absurd.

It read to me like he wants to make sure that the bottom percentiles are starting with a better grasp of literacy and numeracy. it reads like he wants a wider pool of educated people (thus narrowing the gap between top and bottom), not smaller.

[bendan]

It read to me like he wants to make sure that the bottom percentiles are starting with a better grasp of literacy and numeracy. it reads like he wants a wider pool of educated people (thus narrowing the gap between top and bottom), not smaller.

Indeed. It is too expensive to continue having a significant number of people with very poor literacy and numeracy skills.

[Ad Lib]

It read to me like he wants to make sure that the bottom percentiles are starting with a better grasp of literacy and numeracy. it reads like he wants a wider pool of educated people (thus narrowing the gap between top and bottom), not smaller.

If Scotland has a higher percentage of people able to read, write and count than another country, it definitionally has a wider pool of educated people than that other country irrespective of the demographics over which those literate and numerate people are spread.

I might not have seen him provide it, but so far as I can see, in any case bendan has not provided proof on this thread that the distribution of literacy and numeracy is worse for the poor here than all reasonable international comparators.

[renton]

If Scotland has a higher percentage of people able to read, write and count than another country, it definitionally has a wider pool of educated people than that other country irrespective of the demographics over which those literate and numerate people are spread.

I might not have seen him provide it, but so far as I can see, in any case bendan has not provided proof on this thread that the distribution of literacy and numeracy is worse for the poor here than all reasonable international comparators.

I'd imagine, that it's amongst the poorest economically performing percentiles that you'll find those with the most issues in terms of education.

not a perfect source by any means but:http://www.readathon.org/docs/literacychangeslives.pdf

Studies generally show a marked disparity in levels of literacy and employment rates.

For example, data from the NCDS shows that men and women with the lowest levels

of literacy are also the least likely to be employed (e.g. Parsons and Bynner, 2006).

Because of the longitudinal nature of the data it is possible to track people’s progress

from the age of 17 to 37. This data shows that those with lower levels of literacy enter

employment earlier and are more likely to be unemployed by the time they are 23.

The gap between those with low, average and good literacy levels widens by age of

37, with those with low levels of literacy being less likely to be in full-time employment

than those with average or good literacy skills. The study also found that the

relationship between skills and employment is more pronounced in women than in

men.

Men who were poor in both literacy and numeracy were more likely to be in semiskilled

and unskilled jobs, to have had fewer work-related training courses, to have

lower weekly wages and poorer promotion opportunities. 40% of women with low

skills were in manual work, a much higher proportion than for other women in this

cohort. It should be noted that although literacy levels have a powerful impact on a

person’s employment, poor numeracy rather than poor literacy was associated with

low economic well-being.

Who cares about 'reasonable international comparators' anyway, indeed one of the things that annoys me so deeply about the modern UK is it's singular lack of vision and ambition - no worse you say? That'll do!

[Ad Lib]

I'd imagine, that it's amongst the poorest economically performing percentiles that you'll find those with the most issues in terms of education.

not a perfect source by any means but:http://www.readathon.org/docs/literacychangeslives.pdf

I'm left sitting here asking "so f**k"? Illiterate and innumerate people are more likely to be unemployed and therefore more likely to be or become poor? No shit Sherlock. This doesn't mean that a country is doing better if it has more illiterate and innumerate people but they are more socio-economically evenly spread.

Who cares about 'reasonable international comparators' anyway, indeed one of the things that annoys me so deeply about the modern UK is it's singular lack of vision and ambition - no worse you say? That'll do!

Bendan cares. He brought it up.

[renton]

I'm left sitting here asking "so f**k"? Illiterate and innumerate people are more likely to be unemployed and therefore more likely to be or become poor? No shit Sherlock. This doesn't mean that a country is doing better if it has more illiterate and innumerate people but they are more socio-economically evenly spread.

Bendan cares. He brought it up.

Again, I didn't take that from what he wrote. I took it as saying that we should do more to bring up those lower percentiles, not to bring the rest down. A better educated nation is a more competitive and better performing nation, ergo the widest possible pool of literacy and numeracy skills is required.

[Ad Lib]

Again, I didn't take that from what he wrote. I took it as saying that we should do more to bring up those lower percentiles, not to bring the rest down. A better educated nation is a more competitive and better performing nation, ergo the widest possible pool of literacy and numeracy skills is required.

If he is complaining that we are doing less well than other countries with respect to literacy and numeracy and claiming that independence will mean we will do what other countries do, and other countries have overall lower rates of literacy than us but that illiteracy is more evenly spread throughout society, he is saying that their predicament is more desirable than ours and therefore that it is better to have more illiteracy overall if it means we have lower illiteracy among the poor. I find this to be an absurd position.

[renton]

If he is complaining that we are doing less well than other countries with respect to literacy and numeracy and claiming that independence will mean we will do what other countries do, and other countries have overall lower rates of literacy than us but that illiteracy is more evenly spread throughout society, he is saying that their predicament is more desirable than ours and therefore that it is better to have more illiteracy overall if it means we have lower illiteracy among the poor. I find this to be an absurd position.

I'm fascinated by how you would bring that about? Refuse to teach a percentage of children from households earning over a certain amount of money? Labotomies for folk in the upper tax bracket?

it's hard to disagree with the arugment that the lower percentiles in Scotland should be doing better across a range of outcomes, in terms of education, employment and health, and yes I do believe that an independent Scotland would be in a more urgent position to do something about that, than say 30 years worth of West of Scotland Labour MPs who seem to have done the square route of f**k all. Obviously that shouldn't be traded off against the performance of the rest of the nation, If we wnat a better nation then opportunity must be available as widely as possible, not by restricting opportunity but by widening the pool of people to whom it is available.