The wonders of austerity

[Confidemus]

I concur.

I left the Labour Party when Blair was elected.

I could see through the flim-flam that he was little more than style over substance.

In fact it was probably worse than before because he was a unprincipled b*****d who would do anything to stay in power.

Can I ask who your political leanings are towards now?

[H_B]

In Scotland i vote SNP. Not sure about the next proper election... but probably Labour.

I didnt vote at all for 10 years but have come round to the thinking that that is the worst solution to the problem.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Can I ask who your political leanings are towards now?

No-one. I don't believe any political party comes anywhere to my political viewpoint. There isn't really non-nationalist (that includes the Brit Nat variety), non-Trotskyite, socialist party in Scotland (or the UK for that matter).

Tend to vote on the candidate so have voted for non-party candidates on several occasions as well as Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and Communist. Have never voted Tory, UKIP or Green (there's deep reasons for that one).

[Confidemus]

No-one. I don't believe any political party comes anywhere to my political viewpoint. There isn't really non-nationalist (that includes the Brit Nat variety), non-Trotskyite, socialist party in Scotland (or the UK for that matter).

Tend to vote on the candidate so have voted for non-party candidates on several occasions as well as Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and Communist. Have never voted Tory, UKIP or Green (there's deep reasons for that one).

So would you say you have socialist views?

[redderlichtie]

The arguments made by those on here who support the Union seem to be predicated on the belief that nothing will change under independence because the SNP are not what might be described as a full-blooded class war socialist party. I too was a member of the Labour Party, and finally left, for the last and final time, before the invasion of Iraq - that fine example of socialist internationalism. If we are measuring such things then I would have to say that the SNP are much more similar, in their politics, to the LP under Kinnock and Smith.

There is of course the issue of Salmond's attitude towards Trump etc, and his regard for liberal supply side economics,which is raised by those on here who are against Independence - but this ignores the fact that the LP, even at its most left (ie 1945) presented a business friendly face and based itself on the idea of a mixed economy, similar in many regards to the policies of the SNP. If you choose which way to vote on the basis of how social democratic a party is, then there really is no debate - it would be SNP, or alternatively Green, every time.

I do not hold a candle for Salmond (although he is undoubtedly head and shoulders above any other British politician - but that wouldn't be too difficult), and do not see the issue of independence as hinging on just electing another less objectionable bunch of politicians. Following independence I would expect to see an expansion in the scale and importance of extra-parliamentary pressure, particularly from the trade unions and other left leaning campaign groups and communities. I think the trade union leadership in Scotland, such as it is, will re-discover a radical political heart overnight, and that an incoming SNP government will be put under increasing pressure to tack further leftwards. You will also see an expanded presence from the Greens in particular, who will keep the pressure up, along with a rejuvanated LP, from within Holyrood. Indeed, the final hope for a re-building of the LP in Scotland along vaguely socialist lines undoubtedly lies with independence - the question is whether there is the will and desire within their own ranks to push in this direction.

The post-independence political scenario will be very different from the neo-con and neo lib cul-de-sac we presently inhabit, and those who argue against independence because the SNP are not left wing enough should bear this in mind.

[Confidemus]

The arguments made by those on here who support the Union seem to be predicated on the belief that nothing will change under independence because the SNP are not what might be described as a full-blooded class war socialist party. I too was a member of the Labour Party, and finally left, for the last and final time, before the invasion of Iraq - that fine example of socialist internationalism. If we are measuring such things then I would have to say that the SNP are much more similar, in their politics, to the LP under Kinnock and Smith.

There is of course the issue of Salmond's attitude towards Trump etc, and his regard for liberal supply side economics,which is raised by those on here who are against Independence - but this ignores the fact that the LP, even at its most left (ie 1945) presented a business friendly face and based itself on the idea of a mixed economy, similar in many regards to the policies of the SNP. If you choose which way to vote on the basis of how social democratic a party is, then there really is no debate - it would be SNP, or alternatively Green, every time.

I do not hold a candle for Salmond (although he is undoubtedly head and shoulders above any other British politician - but that wouldn't be too difficult), and do not see the issue of independence as hinging on just electing another less objectionable bunch of politicians. Following independence I would expect to see an expansion in the scale and importance of extra-parliamentary pressure, particularly from the trade unions and other left leaning campaign groups and communities. I think the trade union leadership in Scotland, such as it is, will re-discover a radical political heart overnight, and that an incoming SNP government will be put under increasing pressure to tack further leftwards. You will also see an expanded presence from the Greens in particular, who will keep the pressure up, along with a rejuvanated LP, from within Holyrood. Indeed, the final hope for a re-building of the LP in Scotland along vaguely socialist lines undoubtedly lies with independence - the question is whether there is the will and desire within their own ranks to push in this direction.

The post-independence political scenario will be very different from the neo-con and neo lib cul-de-sac we presently inhabit, and those who argue against independence because the SNP are not left wing enough should bear this in mind.

You're far too sensible for this place.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The arguments made by those on here who support the Union seem to be predicated on the belief that nothing will change under independence because the SNP are not what might be described as a full-blooded class war socialist party. I too was a member of the Labour Party, and finally left, for the last and final time, before the invasion of Iraq - that fine example of socialist internationalism. If we are measuring such things then I would have to say that the SNP are much more similar, in their politics, to the LP under Kinnock and Smith.

There is of course the issue of Salmond's attitude towards Trump etc, and his regard for liberal supply side economics,which is raised by those on here who are against Independence - but this ignores the fact that the LP, even at its most left (ie 1945) presented a business friendly face and based itself on the idea of a mixed economy, similar in many regards to the policies of the SNP. If you choose which way to vote on the basis of how social democratic a party is, then there really is no debate - it would be SNP, or alternatively Green, every time.

I do not hold a candle for Salmond (although he is undoubtedly head and shoulders above any other British politician - but that wouldn't be too difficult), and do not see the issue of independence as hinging on just electing another less objectionable bunch of politicians. Following independence I would expect to see an expansion in the scale and importance of extra-parliamentary pressure, particularly from the trade unions and other left leaning campaign groups and communities. I think the trade union leadership in Scotland, such as it is, will re-discover a radical political heart overnight, and that an incoming SNP government will be put under increasing pressure to tack further leftwards. You will also see an expanded presence from the Greens in particular, who will keep the pressure up, along with a rejuvanated LP, from within Holyrood. Indeed, the final hope for a re-building of the LP in Scotland along vaguely socialist lines undoubtedly lies with independence - the question is whether there is the will and desire within their own ranks to push in this direction.

The post-independence political scenario will be very different from the neo-con and neo lib cul-de-sac we presently inhabit, and those who argue against independence because the SNP are not left wing enough should bear this in mind.

Whilst your analysis seems perfectly sensible the reality is that things might not happen that way.

Whatever way the vote goes we must ensure that the political system changes too.

As an aside I don't see the Greens as being the great radical force that some think. Dig down and their policies are as inherently racist as UKIP.

[Enigma]

I think Scottish Independence would be very similar to the Blair government taking over in 1997 and maybe Obama s election too for the fundamentalists.

Vastly overinflated ideas as to what actually would change followed by rage as virtually nothing does.

I think the Obama analogy is a good one. I think that the land of milk and honey stuff is very much like Obama's campaign and iScotland isn't going to be the socialist utopia some think it will be, it might be slightly more socially progressive, the make up of the SP against the make up of Westminster is a good indication of this but we're not going to have a government we're all happy with, we won't have full employment, we probably won't have nukes but we'll still be in NATO, we'll still have the royals, you'll still get lifted for smoking pot and drinking in the street and I'll take a wild stab in the dark and state that the poor will still be poor, labourers and customer assistants won't be earning 30K+ and politicians will still sook the big business wang.

Some will, like those who voted for Obama, look back and say what a load of pish that campaign was, we were duped, some may be very angry indeed that iScotland didn't turn our how that specifically wanted it to some will say here I am in an Independent Scotland and not enough has really changed... and then they'll remember what preceded Obama and what preceded iScotland and think: 'ah well, I suppose it's not the promised land but I'm glad it's not that.'

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I think the Obama analogy is a good one. I think that the land of milk and honey stuff is very much like Obama's campaign and iScotland isn't going to be the socialist utopia some think it will be, it might be slightly more socially progressive, the make up of the SP against the make up of Westminster is a good indication of this but we're not going to have a government we're all happy with, we won't have full employment, we probably won't have nukes but we'll still be in NATO, we'll still have the royals, you'll still get lifted for smoking pot and drinking in the street and I'll take a wild stab in the dark and state that the poor will still be poor, labourers and customer assistants won't be earning 30K+ and politicians will still sook the big business wang.

Some will, like those who voted for Obama, look back and say what a load of pish that campaign was, we were duped, some may be very angry indeed that iScotland didn't turn our how that specifically wanted it to some will say here I am in an Independent Scotland and not enough has really changed... and then they'll remember what preceded Obama and what preceded iScotland and think: 'ah well, I suppose it's not the promised land but I'm glad it's not that.'

I think if there were more honesty then some people might actually be more persuaded to vote Yes.

That means recognising the issues and having solutions that are realistic and would allay people's fears.

What I don't want see is another 6 months of the pish we have had so far. Some of the debating on both sides has been embarrassing - some here could do a better job than some of our mediocre politicians.

[Enigma]

I think if there were more honesty then some people might actually be more persuaded to vote Yes.

That means recognising the issues and having solutions that are realistic and would allay people's fears.

What I don't want see is another 6 months of the pish we have had so far. Some of the debating on both sides has been embarrassing - some here could do a better job than some of our mediocre politicians.

I've got some bad news for you...

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I've got some bad news for you...

Yep - we are going to have 6 months more of the same pish.

[redderlichtie]

Many of the posters on here would make better politicians, but our political system has changed dramatically over the last thirty to forty years, particularly with regards to the LP, and its transition from a social democratic and working class based party to a party of what might, charitably, be described as a liberal progressive party of the middle class. What we have now is a zombie form of politics where selection as an MP, MSP and even councillor is based not on the radicalism and independent thinking of an individual, but on their willingness to tow the, highly centralised, party line - people are elected because of their inability to think independently and to challenge received wisdom. In essence, the 'reforms' etc which marked the move towards New Labour were designed to make the party safe for capital - and that process has went so far as to be irreversible.

This is why independence is so important for the future of social democratic politics, not just in Scotland, but UK wide. Independence would provide Scottish Labour with the opportunity to re-discover their social democratic and radical essence. It does remain to be seen, however, whether Scottish Labour will grasp the nettle post independence. One thing is for sure though - a NO vote this September will see an acceleration in the demise of Scottish Labour. For the SNP, a NO vote would signal a major split within their ranks. In the event of NO, the SNP leadership will be accused of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory through a campaign that attempted to maintain a high wire balancing act between posing as a more radical alternative to the mainstream, without, however, raising aspirations overmuch, particularly through the marginalisation of a more radical vision of independence. My feeling is that the SNP leadership would not welcome the emergence of an independent mass movement demanding a more radical vision of independence, which is why radical socialists should be straining every sinew to bring this about. The possibilities are there, and have been opened up through the independence issue. It is up to ordinary working class people to take ownership of this issue, because politics is far too important to be left in the hands of politicians.

[H_B]

I think the Obama analogy is a good one. I think that the land of milk and honey stuff is very much like Obama's campaign and iScotland isn't going to be the socialist utopia some think it will be, it might be slightly more socially progressive, the make up of the SP against the make up of Westminster is a good indication of this but we're not going to have a government we're all happy with, we won't have full employment, we probably won't have nukes but we'll still be in NATO, we'll still have the royals, you'll still get lifted for smoking pot and drinking in the street and I'll take a wild stab in the dark and state that the poor will still be poor, labourers and customer assistants won't be earning 30K+ and politicians will still sook the big business wang.

Some will, like those who voted for Obama, look back and say what a load of pish that campaign was, we were duped, some may be very angry indeed that iScotland didn't turn our how that specifically wanted it to some will say here I am in an Independent Scotland and not enough has really changed... and then they'll remember what preceded Obama and what preceded iScotland and think: 'ah well, I suppose it's not the promised land but I'm glad it's not that.'

A very fair post. One thing i would say re Obama though is that for many it was a real opportunity for change. When will the next one be?

I think the smart people on both sides know that Independence wont make any difference at all to people s lives. For good or ill. The ppor will still be poor, the rich will still be rich and those of us in the middle will grumble about taxes and bad politics.

[redderlichtie]

This begs the question - if independence would make no difference why are you so vehemently opposed to it?

[Confidemus]

This begs the question - if independence would make no difference why are you so vehemently opposed to it?

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer. You won't get one. Well, not one that doesn't include deflection and insults, at any rate.

[Mr Bairn]

The arguments made by those on here who support the Union seem to be predicated on the belief that nothing will change under independence because the SNP are not what might be described as a full-blooded class war socialist party. I too was a member of the Labour Party, and finally left, for the last and final time, before the invasion of Iraq - that fine example of socialist internationalism. If we are measuring such things then I would have to say that the SNP are much more similar, in their politics, to the LP under Kinnock and Smith.

There is of course the issue of Salmond's attitude towards Trump etc, and his regard for liberal supply side economics,which is raised by those on here who are against Independence - but this ignores the fact that the LP, even at its most left (ie 1945) presented a business friendly face and based itself on the idea of a mixed economy, similar in many regards to the policies of the SNP. If you choose which way to vote on the basis of how social democratic a party is, then there really is no debate - it would be SNP, or alternatively Green, every time.

I do not hold a candle for Salmond (although he is undoubtedly head and shoulders above any other British politician - but that wouldn't be too difficult), and do not see the issue of independence as hinging on just electing another less objectionable bunch of politicians. Following independence I would expect to see an expansion in the scale and importance of extra-parliamentary pressure, particularly from the trade unions and other left leaning campaign groups and communities. I think the trade union leadership in Scotland, such as it is, will re-discover a radical political heart overnight, and that an incoming SNP government will be put under increasing pressure to tack further leftwards. You will also see an expanded presence from the Greens in particular, who will keep the pressure up, along with a rejuvanated LP, from within Holyrood. Indeed, the final hope for a re-building of the LP in Scotland along vaguely socialist lines undoubtedly lies with independence - the question is whether there is the will and desire within their own ranks to push in this direction.

The post-independence political scenario will be very different from the neo-con and neo lib cul-de-sac we presently inhabit, and those who argue against independence because the SNP are not left wing enough should bear this in mind.

Nothing like a Saturday afternoon word salad

[redderlichtie]

Could you explain to me what a 'word salad' is?

[Mr Bairn]

http://justfuckinggoogleit.com

[redderlichtie]

I thought this was a discussion forum, I see I was wrong.

[Enigma]

Interesting that DomDom gave Mr Bairn a red dot. I thought he resigned in the now infamous top 50 posters.