The Independence Vote, Afterwards.

[Confidemus]

Lots of stuff.

That's like saying things are no different to how they were in 1979.

This is a strange debate - and for the first time ever (I think), I totally agree with Lex. In the unfortunate event of a No vote, we will get another chance. It won't be soon but democracy will win out in the end. The Scottish people do not like being told what they can and cannot do and a Westminster government that refused a referendum or set ridiculous rules would be on a hiding to nothing.

This actually seems like a bit of a scare story from the Yes campaign. Or is this not part of an official campaign?

But why not now? What's wrong with now?

[pandarilla]

But why not now? What's wrong with now?

Why not independence now?

I'm desperately trying to make it happen now. I just worry that there's too many numpties that will believe the scare stories and vote No. I hope not - but the polls aren't changing fast enough to make me feel confident. I'm also naturally pessimistic so as not to be too disappointed (I think that's a bit of a national trait actually).

[Grizzly]

If the Westminster parties failed to deliver further reform it's quite easy to see how people who would vote No today might vote Yes in 10 years. For much the same reason as independence has significantly improved its poll ratings in the last decade or so from about 30%.

[Blaven]

Why not independence now?

I'm desperately trying to make it happen now. I just worry that there's too many numpties that will believe the scare stories and vote No. I hope not - but the polls aren't changing fast enough to make me feel confident. I'm also naturally pessimistic so as not to be too disappointed (I think that's a bit of a national trait actually).

"Women, know your place"???

[Al666]

Why not independence now?

I'm desperately trying to make it happen now. I just worry that there's too many numpties that will believe the scare stories and vote No. I hope not - but the polls aren't changing fast enough to make me feel confident. I'm also naturally pessimistic so as not to be too disappointed (I think that's a bit of a national trait actually).

So why do you put so much faith in the lies that fat eck feeds you?

[pandarilla]

"Women, know your place"???

No, I reckon the women will come round - it might still be down on the male vote but there won't be as big a difference.

Its folk that aren't very bright - and that includes men and women.

[pandarilla]

So why do you put so much faith in the lies that fat eck feeds you?

Because I have the intelligence to realise, after a bit of research, that the lies are all coming from BT.

I'm fairly politically aware - and have came to the conclusion that Westminster is as corrupt as politics get. I want out - and independence gives us a chance to build something better. Whether we f**k it up or not will be up to us. I think we'll make it work - and live in a fairer society, with less stigmatisation of those less fortunate.

I'm not sure what your reasons for maintain the union are. Are you happy with the way British society is going, politically?

[Blaven]

Because I have the intelligence to realise, after a bit of research, that the lies are all coming from BT.

I'm fairly politically aware - and have came to the conclusion that Westminster is as corrupt as politics get. I want out - and independence gives us a chance to build something better. Whether we f**k it up or not will be up to us. I think we'll make it work - and live in a fairer society, with less stigmatisation of those less fortunate.

I'm not sure what your reasons for maintain the union are. Are you happy with the way British society is going, politically?

"Westminster is as corrupt as polotics get". No trust.

Yet they will give us another go at a referendum. Trust.

[Al666]

Because I have the intelligence to realise, after a bit of research, that the lies are all coming from BT.

I'm fairly politically aware - and have came to the conclusion that Westminster is as corrupt as politics get. I want out - and independence gives us a chance to build something better. Whether we f**k it up or not will be up to us. I think we'll make it work - and live in a fairer society, with less stigmatisation of those less fortunate.

I'm not sure what your reasons for maintain the union are. Are you happy with the way British society is going, politically?

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

[Confidemus]

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

Paragraph break is your friend.

Having read your diatribe, I'm not sure how politically aware you are.

You should join the Tories or UKIP. Heaven forfend any of your family ends up relying on benefits.

[ayrmad]

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

I wouldn't like to see your thoughts if you weren't politically aware.

[Blaven]

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

I do wish you would get more involved in this debate. Poping up now and again with snippets of wisdom like these, is not enough.

We need more like you to tell us just how wrong all us jocks who are voting YES really are.

I never thought about ditching the poor before. It just might work.

Then we could move on to women who no longer menstruate. They are no longer useful either.

Any others we could add to the list to no longer support?

[Burma]

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

So you therefore feel that socialist type concepts should be done away with? You would like to see an end to Universal health care, state pensions, state provided security, a free market without any form of restriction or regulation, an end to subsidised farming, the end of free state education, the removal of state responsibility for housing etc etc?

[pandarilla]

"Westminster is as corrupt as polotics get". No trust.

Yet they will give us another go at a referendum. Trust.

You are talking about a 20 years down the line government. It is a basic point of democracy that when enough people want something, momentum builds and grows and politicians eventually fall into line. The idea of a future government completely ignoring the will of the Scottish people for another referendum is just inconceivable to me.

For God's sake even Lex would be on the streets protesting. As I've said the Scots (even those who disagree with independence) do not take well to being told what they can and cannot do.

I've not seen any No campaigners using this argument (about getting another chance in the future). It certainly won't be in the near future. I look at things from historical perspectives and just see independence as inevitable. If not this time (which is absolutely my preference), then in 20 or so years.

[pandarilla]

I'm fairly politically aware as well, and also smart enough to realise that non of the promises made by the yessers have any basis in fact, the economic argument does not add up at the present time, and it never will until we fix the system that allows people to be supported by the state rather than support themselves. Currently Holyrood is just as corrupt as Westminster, and will remain so for as long as we allow people to stand for election on thepremise of "Vote for me and I'll give you things you haven't earned". Surely the definition of a fair society is for the people to keepwhat they have earned, and to spend in in the way of their choosing. Socialism relies on there always being an underclass to necessatate a political "elite", and to ensure, wheather by immigration or putting a system in place that ecourages and rewards the nonproductive to breed by giving them more money and bigger houses,and this is the vision we are offered of an independent Scotland.

This is the biggest gem for me.

Fairness being unfettered free market capitalism. That is the very definition of Doublespeak.

[Burma]

You are talking about a 20 years down the line government. It is a basic point of democracy that when enough people want something, momentum builds and grows and politicians eventually fall into line. The idea of a future government completely ignoring the will of the Scottish people for another referendum is just inconceivable to me.

For God's sake even Lex would be on the streets protesting. As I've said the Scots (even those who disagree with independence) do not take well to being told what they can and cannot do.

I've not seen any No campaigners using this argument (about getting another chance in the future). It certainly won't be in the near future. I look at things from historical perspectives and just see independence as inevitable. If not this time (which is absolutely my preference), then in 20 or so years.

Im not sure about future referendums being as easy to obtain by a future SG as this one has been. In my opinion there will be a very very restricted transfer of some fiscal powers from WM to Holyrood, but it will be tempered with a reduction in autonomy elsewhere.

I think it is much more likely that, in the event of a NO vote, we will see the next WM govt bring forward a new Act of Union to "strengthen the hostoric bond" which the Scots will have endorsed. This will be trumpeted largely as symbolic, however it will probably contain clauses on future referendums "to provide constitutional clarity" which will effectively remove the ability of Holyrood to bring forward a referendum bill of this type again, and will contractually obligate the people of Scotland to present their desire for constitutional change through a series of complex political stages with the final authority reliant upon some new constitutional grand committee.

The result of a NO vote will in my opinion allow the Unionists to remove the possibility of a "neverendum" for at least 50 years. This will be heralded as the defeat of the Nationalists "agenda of uncertainty".

[pandarilla]

Im not sure about future referendums being as easy to obtain by a future SG as this one has been. In my opinion there will be a very very restricted transfer of some fiscal powers from WM to Holyrood, but it will be tempered with a reduction in autonomy elsewhere.

I think it is much more likely that, in the event of a NO vote, we will see the next WM govt bring forward a new Act of Union to "strengthen the hostoric bond" which the Scots will have endorsed. This will be trumpeted largely as symbolic, however it will probably contain clauses on future referendums "to provide constitutional clarity" which will effectively remove the ability of Holyrood to bring forward a referendum bill of this type again, and will contractually obligate the people of Scotland to present their desire for constitutional change through a series of complex political stages with the final authority reliant upon some new constitutional grand committee.

The result of a NO vote will in my opinion allow the Unionists to remove the possibility of a "neverendum" for at least 50 years. This will be heralded as the defeat of the Nationalists "agenda of uncertainty".

Surely not! 50?

Of course there can't be a referendum every 5 years but there's a balance to be found.

[Burma]

Surely not! 50?

Of course there can't be a referendum every 5 years but there's a balance to be found.

You can argue with timescales and I wouldnt put up too much of a fight, however I believe that in the event of a NO vote most people alive today will not get another crack at this.

[ICTChris]

1979 - Devo 1

1997 - Devo 2

2014 - Indyref 1

Going by this foolproof pattern if the vote is No we should see another vote in 2032.

[ecto]

1979 - Devo 1

1997 - Devo 2

2014 - Indyref 1

Going by this foolproof pattern if the vote is No we should see another vote in 2032.

this would depend on size of defeat, heavy defeat this time say 60/40, 2040 at the earliest 55/45 or closer, maybe 2020-2022