Bing (2) Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 we've already done this in Norn' Iron - some found it less palatable than others. Not just Norn , unless Gibralter moved.......... It would work though. I'd earn that pension! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Blah, blah, blah.......... "Sheltering" intimates a willingness when, in reality, people were shit scared to face them down, quite understandably, but we've been over all this before. Nice try champ, but violent bigots have the ability to intimidate in any given society; only in the failed statelet has it been able to organise and reproduce, quite plainly because of the so-called decent community's active harbouring and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I would fully agree with banning the OO from Catholic/nationalist/republican areas where they are not wanted, but, while Ardoyne is such a nationalist area, the shops are at the perimeter of Ardoyne, separating the houses from the marchers, and it is a stretch of road about 100 yards long. The area where containing the road in question is not nationalist. Surely there are no nationalist or loyalist areas as the "ordinary decent folk" are the majority in all areas and all should be spared the shite that comes with this time of year no matter what colour their kerb stones are painted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Nice try champ, but violent bigots have the ability to intimidate in any given society; only in the failed statelet has it been able to organise and reproduce, quite plainly because of the so-called decent community's actively harbouring and support. Bullshit, and you know it. Given the divided nature of the country, with the warring factions mostly split into areas that are exclusively "one or the other", it was very easy to do this, especially when they started off by fooling people into thinking there was a "cause". By the time the penny dropped the gangsters were well armed and had tight little networks, building up intelligence networks that made taking control of fractious little communities quite easy, especially in Belfast where small opposing communities exist cheek by jowl. Kneecappings and intimidation tend to reduce the decent folk's co-operation with the police, even when they actually want to. When the "enemy" live just the other side of the peace wall then self-preservation dictates that you are unlikely to want to piss off your own community, no matter how much you disagree with their tactics. I've lived it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Mmm yes, the views of the ordinary decent folk are similarly well documented by their backing of parties who aren't at all dependent upon sectarian identity politics for their relevance, oh no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Surely there are no nationalist or loyalist areas as the "ordinary decent folk" are the majority in all areas and all should be spared the shite that comes with this time of year no matter what colour their kerb stones are painted? The troubled areas are ostensibly working class or unemployed, so they live side by side with the gangsters and cannot escape so readily, and the paramilitaries are/were well-armed, so they have a disproportionate sway over their areas. I'd have had them shoot sarky cnuts rather than each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Mmm yes, the views of the ordinary decent folk are similarly well documented by their backing of parties who aren't at all dependent upon sectarian identity politics for their relevance, oh no. Lack of viable options and the politics of fear, but we are covering old ground here....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Nice try champ, but violent bigots have the ability to intimidate in any given society; only in the failed statelet has it been able to organise and reproduce, quite plainly because of the so-called decent community's active harbouring and support. Never seen the ' omagawd theres a peado round here' facebook posts by the vitriolic welfare mums............. Not that is organised and fucking dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Bullshit, and you know it. Given the divided nature of the country, with the warring factions mostly split into areas that are exclusively "one or the other", it was very easy to do this, especially when they started off by fooling people into thinking there was a "cause". By the time the penny dropped the gangsters were well armed and had tight little networks, building up intelligence networks that made taking control of fractious little communities quite easy, especially in Belfast where small opposing communities exist cheek by jowl. Kneecappings and intimidation tend to reduce the decent folk's co-operation with the police, even when they actually want to. When the "enemy" live just the other side of the peace wall then self-preservation dictates that you are unlikely to want to piss off your own community, no matter how much you disagree with their tactics. I've lived it. There is absolutely zero historical basis for your claim that it was effectively the result of opportunist criminals - political paramilitarism has been a part of the island's politics for a century, at the very highest level of organisations. Your victim account is as a result a predictable falsehood, notably outlined by the complete absence of an oppositional, peace-based political or social movement, representing 'ordinary people' worthy of the name. If the people were duped and learned to oppose violence, they've found a remarkably invisible means of doing so. And I haven't failed to note the ever-increasing spread of 'small opposing communities' in your otherwise terrific Hovis ad/The Shire account of the failed statelet prior to the 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Lack of viable options and the politics of fear, but we are covering old ground here.......In what way does 'the politics of fear' force voters in droves to select bigot parties over non-bigot candidates, at an election controlled by highly effective laws and a secret ballot? Be very specific.The degrees of agency and accountability being waived on behalf of this 'decent community' is simply breathtaking. Which given they apparently can't even vote without a paramilitary organisation gunning down their family brings us back to the issue of widespread support for the organisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 There is absolutely zero historical basis for your claim that it was effectively the result of opportunist criminals - political paramilitarism has been a part of the island's politics for a century, at the very highest level of organisations. I never said it was opportunist criminals; those are your words. It started out as a supposed "cause", and I believe that many on both sides were genuine at the outset, believing they were fighting for something. Over the ensuing decades the gangsters took control and thousands moved to other parts of NI or the UK, leaving the proportion of gangsters higher and their control more absolute. A history scholar such as yourself will surely be aware of the huge demographic changes, or does that not suit your argument? Your victim account is as a result a predictable falsehood, notably outlined by the complete absence of an oppositional, peace-based political or social movement, representing 'ordinary people' worthy of the name. If the people were duped and learned to oppose violence, they've found a remarkably invisible means of doing so. I've never claimed to be a victim - I got out. As for an oppositional peace based political or social movement representing ordinary people, I give you the Peace People. Sadly they failed but, initially they had huge numbers. The decent people trapped in working class areas of high unemployment, such as the Falls and the Shankill, were very much victims. And I haven't failed to note the ever-increasing spread of 'small opposing communities' in your otherwise terrific Hovis ad/The Shire account of the failed statelet prior to the 1970s. Your usual trite and pathetic sarcasm. Try looking at any educational article on North Belfast where the political/religious demography changes every 100 yards or so, with some people living in little enclaves. We can't all live in the paradise that is Greenock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 In what way does 'the politics of fear' force voters in droves to select bigot parties over non-bigot candidates, at an election controlled by highly effective laws and a secret ballot? Be very specific. The degrees of agency and accountability being waived on behalf of this 'decent community' is simply breathtaking. Which given they apparently can't even vote without a paramilitary organisation gunning down their family brings us back to the issue of widespread support for the organisations. More convoluted bullshit and twisting of words. By politics of fear I meant that people often voted to keep the opposition out due to a lack of viable alternatives. One side wanted to perpetuate the state, the other to oppose it. They were both frightened of the other side getting in as they had been force fed bullshit for years. Divide and conquer is a wonderful tool. I would have thought an emeritus professor of history would understand things like that? Of course the bigots voted as per their bigotry, but the ordinary folk often did as stated in my opening sentence. Don't you think that middle of the road parties were threatened and intimidated too? It's amazing that you know more about it than people who actually lived there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 A huge demographic change... yet still leaving bigots as a tiny minority of a 'decent community'? I'm afraid you can't have it both ways - the failed statelet had bigot-supporting communities back then and now, regardless of migration. Which is why in much better places to live, including Greenock, people aren't murdering each other on a regular basis over a battle 300 years ago. A low benchmark admittedly, but the failed statelet does bat it out with Somalia and the likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Which is why in much better places to live, including Greenock, people aren't murdering each other on a regular basis over a battle 300 years ago. A low benchmark admittedly, but the failed statelet does bat it out with Somalia and the likes. ^^^ Takes his username from a battle/invasion/settlement a thousand years ago. Champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 More convoluted bullshit and twisting of words. By politics of fear I meant that people often voted to keep the opposition out due to a lack of viable alternatives. One side wanted to perpetuate the state, the other to oppose it. They were both frightened of the other side getting in as they had been force fed bullshit for years. Divide and conquer is a wonderful tool. I would have thought an emeritus professor of history would understand things like that? Of course the bigots voted as per their bigotry, but the ordinary folk often did as stated in my opening sentence. Don't you think that middle of the road parties were threatened and intimidated too? It's amazing that you know more about it than people who actually lived there? Divide and conquer requires an overarching political manipulation - no such institution exists, though it's notable to see the 'decent community' once again, unfailingly, delegating their political voice to bigot parties - it's almost as if they hold levels of popular support or something! And once again you've yet to account for 'intimidation' over exercises such as voting by secret ballot. Where middle-ground and non-bigots were rejected by the 'community'. In droves. Looks like the term 'decent' means something else in failed statelet parlance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 ^^^ Takes his username from a battle/invasion/settlement a thousand years ago. Champ. Erm no I don't; swing and a miss. Thanks for playing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Erm no I don't; swing and a miss. Thanks for playing anyway. yes you do....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 yes you do....................... Think you'll find you're talking shite there. I'm sure you're used to that feeling though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing (2) Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Think you'll find you're talking shite there. I'm sure you're used to that feeling though. Disparaging remark with no counter.....yep, thats you VT. So, why the Viking ref then? Yer da a Swede? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkinFighter Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Wunfy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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