Should I vote yes?

[undecided]

For the OP; see pages 21/22 on the attached. In 1997 when the White Papers for Wales an Scotland were going through Parliament John Prescott started a process for English Regional Authorities to have similar devolved powers. 17 years later, the English Regions are stuck where they are. At the same time The Greater London Assembly was also created giving semi-autonomous rule for London that the rest of England was denied.

The big fear for Westminster and the corrupt London moneylenders is not the loss of Scotland but that it might awake the English regions to do something to protect their own futures. We are very lucky we have a choice, the English don't.

I've also put the Wiki page for English Region Leaders Boards which is a toothless cover show for what should have been, by now, English Regional Authorities. Please note the part about the current Government withdrawing funding in June 2010. The coalition was the first Tory government since 1997 and had effectively abolished any notion it regional devolution within just a month of returning to power. Must have been pretty important then?

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=RP98-1

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Authority_Leaders%27_Board

In short, Please vote Yes and help Scotland look after it's own.

There are 14 pages in this pdf - can't find page 21-22?

Oops sorry - my browser took a while to load the pdf you meant.

[MassiveFanDan]

Direct taxation from the sale of oil is not the only revenue we would gain from having control over our own geographic resources.

The industry is worth around £35 billion per year to the UK Treasury - not £6 billion. Even the BBC have reported this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27129660

23 April 2014 Last updated at 14:08 GMT

Oil and gas industry 'worth £35bn annually' to UK economy

Continue reading the main story Related Stories

• Oil and gas firms expect jobs growth
• North Sea costs 'must be reduced'
• New offshore tax rules criticised

The oil and gas industry is worth about £35bn to the UK economy, according to a new study.

The research, commissioned by industry body Oil and Gas UK, found more than 3,000 companies were directly involved in the industry.

The number of people employed by UK firms grew by more than 20,000 in the four years to 2012.

The report said a key challenge was the availability of skilled and experienced workers.

It also suggested the industry needs to increase exports to sustain growth.

'Robust outlook'

The Ernst and Young report states: "The era of cheap, easy oil may be over but the global demand for oil and gas remains high.

"In a world of sustained high oil prices but declining production, the outlook for the oilfield services industry is robust."

An independent Scotland could see between 90 and 95% of that income flowing to a Treasury in Scotland instead of to the one in London.

That's where the countries' wealth will come from (as well as from income tax, VAT, and all the other revenue streams that would accrue to Scotland instead of the UK after independence).

Trade and work connections between the UK and the Republic of Ireland are quite open and free. Companies in the ROI still receive orders from England and vice versa.

[Confidemus]

Be interesting to see if the OP replies to the above, or if my intitial suspicions are true.

[Blaven]

Be interesting to see if the OP replies to the above, or if my intitial suspicions are true.

Not quite sure which decade he's getting his info from.

It is the kind of stuff that even Darling would cringe at.

[Confidemus]

Not quite sure which decade he's getting his info from.

It is the kind of stuff that even Darling would cringe at.

Anyone who still balks at a Yes vote with all the information available is either a selfish b*****d or incredibly stupid.

[scothmist]

I am not sure how I am going to vote.

I have a mortgage to pay off and a job which is partially dependent on some companies down south - giving work to company I am working for.

So my worry is that breaking from the rest of UK and obviously having our own currency is going to break lots of existing connections.

For example the company I am working for may not get next contract come December. Customers down south are probably likely to feel unsure about long term relations and are likely to start looking for another company to do what they need done for them.

I know people just say - we don't care about them down south - but obviously I do not want to be left without a job when current contracts expire later this year :-(

We seem to be doing all right in Scotland at the moment - we have free unis for our kids, working NHS and most people I know have jobs and are doing OK-ish. I was struggling for a while myself but now have a steady job again.

So I am basically thinking - is it worth it - to ruin a lot of things just to allow someone in Holyrood to swing more money. I am sure I will not see any of it anyway. Politicians always promise you things but I never trust them and so far was proved correct.

Also it does not seem to be that much anyway - they seem to be talking about £1000 oil money per person a year. Obviously if I lose my job I will lose much more per year?

I guess a lot of people are in a similar situation - what do you think?

Come on now. stop having your fun with this bunch of credulous nincompoops.

[chomp my root]

Anyone who still balks at a Yes vote with all the information available is either a selfish b*****d or incredibly stupid.

This kind of language does you no credit, it doesn't matter how passionately you feel on a subject, to label those that disagree with you as either selfish or stupid is not going to win anyone over and is just divisive.

[scothmist]

This kind of language does you no credit, it doesn't matter how passionately you feel on a subject, to label those that disagree with you as either selfish or stupid is not going to win anyone over and is just divisive.

I echo your words, and curse myself that I have never pointed out his bigotry before. But I always assumed that everybody on here knew this. I always just took the sour with the bitter.

[undecided]

Direct taxation from the sale of oil is not the only revenue we would gain from having control over our own geographic resources.

The industry is worth around £35 billion per year to the UK Treasury - not £6 billion. Even the BBC have reported this:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27129660

An independent Scotland could see between 90 and 95% of that income flowing to a Treasury in Scotland instead of to the one in London.

Thanks MassiveFD. Your number is obviously correct, but this is a different number.

I think we already have big part of this money anyway.

Obviously people who work in the oil industry In Scotland for different companies i.e. Norwegian, Scottish or British already benefit from this as they are being paid salaries etc. So this number is not going suddenly to change for Scotland, I think.

I guess we already get may be 10-15bn from this number as salaries paid to people working in oil industry.

The rest may be paid to non-Scottish people working for the same industry, I guess.

This ration will not suddenly change when Scotland is going to get independence. Unless we take over all the jobs and get rid of all those guys in England/Wells/Ireland who a working in oil industry.

The article says there are 3000 companies in UK working in oil industry and 35 bn is theirs revenue.

They will obviously continue working after Scotland gets independence and will obviously be still paid by the big players for services and work.

I can't see how Scotland can get all the 35 bn after independence - unless it nationalises all the private companies developing oil fields and moves all orders from all over UK to Scottish companies exclusively. Such a small Bolsheviks revolution. I hope we are not that stupid to become a socialist state like former USSR. :-)

So I think this number is not what the difference is going to be after we take over oil.

I think real difference in money Scotland is going to see are the tax revenues and those are the £100 /month (or 5bn year).

So I do not expect Scotland will automatically become "One of the richest nations in the world" (SNPs slogan) by taking over oil taxes.

In other words if you take total amount of salaries paid to Scottish workers you woud get some 60 bn pounds a year (I am guessing here but if we have say 3 million working people in Scotland averaging say 20,000 a year that would be about right).

So these 35 bn a year is a big number but it has not has much to do with independence - those are not become Scottish automatically unless you are prepared to take it over - effectively by force....

I think this is correct.

[undecided]

Not quite sure which decade he's getting his info from.

It is the kind of stuff that even Darling would cringe at.

Oh I did not have a clue about numbers until Confidemus here gave me a reference to Scottish Government report from 2014 I believe with all the numbers. You can see his post in this thread here.

I will copy it here in a minute so you can have a read if you want.

Here you are: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00453317.pdf

This is from Scottish Government directly and it is May 2014.

You see I did not even vote for a long time as I am pretty non-political and do not trust politicians anyway. But this is a serious vote so I decided to have a look myself and ask around.

Funny I found a football forum to discuss that :-) but there are some people here who actually know what they are talking about. Which is what makes this useful for myself.

[pandarilla]

Stop being hung up on the idea that we will automatically be richer as a nation, and that you will automatically be richer as an individual.

We will comfortably be able to function (and I believe prosper) as an independent nation. We will have control over the decisions we make - and our politicians will be more accountable.

[chomp my root]

Stop being hung up on the idea that we will automatically be richer as a nation, and that you will automatically be richer as an individual.

We will comfortably be able to function (and I believe prosper) as an independent nation. We will have control over the decisions we make - and our politicians will be more accountable.

You say that we shouldn't be hung up about being wealthier but its a basic (and over simplistic I admit) yardstick of how 'successful' we are. To say that we shouldn't be bothered about money is a bit of a daft claim, as it's kind of what we all try and do to make our lives better (again, a very simplistic view but while more money doesn't guarantee you'll be happy it gives you more options). If Scotland gets independence I think we'd muddle along fine because, lets face it, countries do but you'll have to forgive me if I don't just take your belief at face value and I've got no idea why our polticians will be more accountable, this just seems blind faith which as I've said, I require more than that, I want intentions. I can accept if things don't go according to plan, shit happens but I'd like the stall to be set out, the SNP at least should be stating what they intend after independence, they're the party that's (apparently) anticipating it.

[Blaven]

You say that we shouldn't be hung up about being wealthier but its a basic (and over simplistic I admit) yardstick of how 'successful' we are. To say that we shouldn't be bothered about money is a bit of a daft claim, as it's kind of what we all try and do to make our lives better (again, a very simplistic view but while more money doesn't guarantee you'll be happy it gives you more options). If Scotland gets independence I think we'd muddle along fine because, lets face it, countries do but you'll have to forgive me if I don't just take your belief at face value and I've got no idea why our polticians will be more accountable, this just seems blind faith which as I've said, I require more than that, I want intentions. I can accept if things don't go according to plan, shit happens but I'd like the stall to be set out, the SNP at least should be stating what they intend after independence, they're the party that's (apparently) anticipating it.

I think that what you want would be in the constitution of an independent Scotland.

If I'm right, the UKG does not have a constitution. Nothing that holds them accountable.

In fact, I think the UK is one of the very few countries in the world not to have a constitution.

That's why our dear MPs can promise what they want and never have to deliver. Nothing in place to hold them accountable.

I do know that the SNP are very keen on making sure that Scotland has it's own written constitution.

[chomp my root]

I think that what you want would be in the constitution of an independent Scotland.

If I'm right, the UKG does not have a constitution. Nothing that holds them accountable.

In fact, I think the UK is one of the very few countries in the world not to have a constitution.

That's why our dear MPs can promise what they want and never have to deliver. Nothing in place to hold them accountable.

I do know that the SNP are very keen on making sure that Scotland has it's own written constitution.

I want a fair country, no unelected head of state, secular schools and a welfare system thats fair for all. These are snappy phrases but in reality what I consider a decent welfare system might not be what others do so its all a bit woolly. I don't think most people who want a 'new' Scotland want stuff thats generally unreasonable but apart from the fact that you can't please all the people all the time good intentions just aren't enough. If I'm going to be convinced to vote for change I pretty much want to know what the intentions are or alternatively, things would have to be a hell of a lot worse before I was prepared to jump into the unknown. It's not for myself that I'm concerned, I'm lucky enough to be reasonably well sorted but I've got a kid who I obviously want the best for (maybe selfish by default then ).

I accept that I'm cynical but I really don't think that under an independent Scotland that by some miracle our MP's will be better than Westminster or anywhere else, we'd just be swapping one shower for another.

[Blaven]

I want a fair country, no unelected head of state, secular schools and a welfare system thats fair for all. These are snappy phrases but in reality what I consider a decent welfare system might not be what others do so its all a bit woolly. I don't think most people who want a 'new' Scotland want stuff thats generally unreasonable but apart from the fact that you can't please all the people all the time good intentions just aren't enough. If I'm going to be convinced to vote for change I pretty much want to know what the intentions are or alternatively, things would have to be a hell of a lot worse before I was prepared to jump into the unknown. It's not for myself that I'm concerned, I'm lucky enough to be reasonably well sorted but I've got a kid who I obviously want the best for (maybe selfish by default then ).

I accept that I'm cynical but I really don't think that under an independent Scotland that by some miracle our MP's will be better than Westminster or anywhere else, we'd just be swapping one shower for another.

You forgot world peace.

Don't know just how much the SNP can promise you. That can really only come in an election manifesto.

Have you heard what vision either side have put forward?

Change?

We have had 300 years of doing it their way. Still half the country feels we can do and probably deserve better. The other half though say f*ck the other half, I'm OKUK.

When it comes to one shower for another though, I was reading today that since 2012 ,a total of 182 acts of the Scottish parliament have received Royal assent. That's how many acts our shower had to bring in, in 2 years that that shower never had in place.

[pandarilla]

The welfare state is under attack from a privileged ruling class. Labour agree with their policies because they know they have to in order to win over middle England. Where is the party standing up for those on welfare? It doesn't exist in Westminster.

You want an elected head of state? how the hell is that ever going to happen status quo?

The unknown? Like pretty much every other nation in the western world? The capitalist forces are v strong, and there won't be much difference in terms of our economic situation. Google Robert peston independence. We can however change direction in terms of social policy and how our money is spent.

And believe me, I am voting in the interests of my two young children.

[pandarilla]

The point about politicians being more accountable relates to the size of our democracy. The closer we are to our representatives the more control we have over them.

[chomp my root]

You forgot world peace.

Don't know just how much the SNP can promise you. That can really only come in an election manifesto.

Have you heard what vision either side have put forward?

Change?

We have had 300 years of doing it their way. Still half the country feels we can do and probably deserve better. The other half though say f*ck the other half, I'm OKUK.

When it comes to one shower for another though, I was reading today that since 2012 ,a total of 182 acts of the Scottish parliament have received Royal assent. That's how many acts our shower had to bring in, in 2 years that that shower never had in place.

I'm still not exactly gushing about all the acts that the Scottish Parlie have introduced. Again, colour me cynical but for me they have introduced bills just for the sake of it (to me). You say half are trying to feck the other half but surely by default the second half are doing the same (if you follow me) so it just comes down to personal views and prejudices on both sides.

I'm just very underwhelmed so far and it really is the devil I know to an extent. I've posted before that if things change like the (to me unlikely but not impossible) future UK referendum on staying in Europe going for an opt out, I'd be inclined to vote YES but we're stacking up the hypothetical's and the fact that we would of had a referendum debate a couple of years earlier (in this scenario) would make it unlikely to have another one so soon kind of ruins the SNP's chances of having a probably more successful one.

[chomp my root]

The welfare state is under attack from a privileged ruling class. Labour agree with their policies because they know they have to in order to win over middle England. Where is the party standing up for those on welfare? It doesn't exist in Westminster.

You want an elected head of state? how the hell is that ever going to happen status quo?

The unknown? Like pretty much every other nation in the western world? The capitalist forces are v strong, and there won't be much difference in terms of our economic situation. Google Robert peston independence. We can however change direction in terms of social policy and how our money is spent.

And believe me, I am voting in the interests of my two young children.

No argument from me that the Tories are doing their best to dismantle the NHS and I hope that they get punted at the next UK elections. I know Labour seem to be out of favour on this forum but as I said earlier, I'm not sure exactly who Labour are supposed to be representing, Labour by its definition should be representing 'working class' but the differences have become very blurred and we now have a reasonably sized 'under class' who I suppose aren't 'working' (it's all very complicated) so should Labour represent the 'working' ones or the 'non working' (I'm not having a go, as I say, it's all a bit messy) ?

Edited because I don't know the difference between know and now

[Blaven]

I'm still not exactly gushing about all the acts that the Scottish Parlie have introduced. Again, colour me cynical but for me they have introduced bills just for the sake of it (to me). You say half are trying to feck the other half but surely by default the second half are doing the same (if you follow me) so it just comes down to personal views and prejudices on both sides.

I'm just very underwhelmed so far and it really is the devil I know to an extent. I've posted before that if things change like the (to me unlikely but not impossible) future UK referendum on staying in Europe going for an opt out, I'd be inclined to vote YES but we're stacking up the hypothetical's and the fact that we would of had a referendum debate a couple of years earlier (in this scenario) would make it unlikely to have another one so soon kind of ruins the SNP's chances of having a probably more successful one.

No I can't see the UK and the EU being all that good a buddies in the not too distant future.

Question is not " is this what any of the UK parties want" but more about " is this what the MSM want"?