H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 And of course the SNP are a very broad church. I couldn't for example be a member of a political party that cherishes disgusting bigot scum like John Mason to its bosom and puts him forward for election. He is of course just one of the many homophobic SNP bigots. I guess voters in the Mason type constituencies will vote for any monkey with a yellow rosette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Rubbish. The SNP want Scotland to look after its own affairs, just like every nation. It is more than happy to be part of the wider EU and is very inclusive re. Immigration policy. The Ukip party want to isolate broken Britain. They are completely different however as u are a labour unionist I am sure you believe everything u read in the media. I'm sure UKIP would say that all they want is for the UK to look after it's own affairs against the 'broken' EU. Same philosophy, different target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I'm sure UKIP would say that all they want is for the UK to look after it's own affairs against the 'broken' EU. Same philosophy, different target. Really, so why does the SNP want Scotland to be part of a bigger entity europe? But the ukip want to be smaller and more parochial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Really, so why does the SNP want Scotland to be part of a bigger entity europe? But the ukip want to be smaller and more parochial? Populism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I'm sure UKIP would say that all they want is for the UK to look after it's own affairs against the 'broken' EU. Same philosophy, different target. well, not really, given that UKIP are essentially a continuity Thatcherite party with views on Europe that all but powerless far-right Tory backbenchers can't stomach. There's no doubt the SNP (as is the same with every political party) has had some unsavoury and bigoted characters in its front line. You'd really have a tough job presenting the SNP as a continuity-Thatcherite party though. That view just doesn't hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 well, not really, given that UKIP are essentially a continuity Thatcherite party with views on Europe that all but powerless far-right Tory backbenchers can't stomach. There's no doubt the SNP (as is the same with every political party) has had some unsavoury and bigoted characters in its front line. You'd really have a tough job presenting the SNP as a continuity-Thatcherite party though. That view just doesn't hold water. I don't think anyone would try to suggest that. They are not the same party, but they have clear similarities, share similar philosophies and operate in similar ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 well, not really, given that UKIP are essentially a continuity Thatcherite party with views on Europe that all but powerless far-right Tory backbenchers can't stomach. There's no doubt the SNP (as is the same with every political party) has had some unsavoury and bigoted characters in its front line. You'd really have a tough job presenting the SNP as a continuity-Thatcherite party though. That view just doesn't hold water. I think that's fair comment, but it would be interesting to see the voting landscape if the SNP were suddenly removed from the picture overnight. I'd wager decent money UKIP's vote in Scotland would grow to match that in the rest of the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't think anyone would try to suggest that. They are not the same party, but they have clear similarities, share similar philosophies and operate in similar ways. enlighten me. I really can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Absolutely. Just as an example, in a You Gov survey 58% of Scottish respondents wanted reduced immigration. We have numerous instances of anti-English racism in Scotland. Scotland isn't this oasis of tolerance - it's a wide spectrum of decency, at the wrong end of which there are the same racist scumbags we get throughout the UK. Are you seriously suggesting Scotland is less racist than the rest of the UK? Seriously?? No, I'm suggesting you have no evidence for the SNP 'hoovering up' and therefore having the majority of those 'racist scumbags' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't think anyone would try to suggest that. They are not the same party, but they have clear similarities, share similar philosophies and operate in similar ways. You could say the same about UKIP and the Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think that's fair comment, but it would be interesting to see the voting landscape if the SNP were suddenly removed from the picture overnight. I'd wager decent money UKIP's vote in Scotland would grow to match that in the rest of the UK. The continuity Thatcherism I referred to will always hobble their vote in Scotland, even if the Eurosceptic viewpoint has more of a following north of the border than some want to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 enlighten me. I really can't see it. They both position themselves as 'outside the establishment', both want massive constitutional change, both pick up votes by trying to create disillusionment with status quo politics, both want to leave successful unions based on nationalistic philosophies, both base policy on populism and both operate on an 'us and them' basis. They do have their similarities and pick up support in similar ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 No, I'm suggesting you have no evidence for the SNP 'hoovering up' and therefore having the majority of those 'racist scumbags' Ah right. Without asking SNP voters individually I can't give you this evidence. It is an opinion. We know that the SNP has attracted anti-English racists and xenophobes - it's the natural home for them and they are comfortable there. I don't differentiate between those who are anti-English and anti-Polish, or Pakistani, or any other immigrant community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Ah right. Without asking SNP voters individually I can't give you this evidence. It is an opinion. We know that the SNP has attracted anti-English racists and xenophobes - it's the natural home for them and they are comfortable there. I don't differentiate between those who are anti-English and anti-Polish, or Pakistani, or any other immigrant community. Neither do I, I don't believe anti-englishness makes up any significant part of that support, and given the support of Labour and the Tories by suh enlightened organisations as the Orange Order, I think the natural home for most of Scotland's small minded bigots actually lies outside the SNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 enlighten me. I really can't see it. They both position themselves as 'outside the establishment', both want massive constitutional change, both pick up votes by trying to create disillusionment with status quo politics, both want to leave successful unions based on nationalistic philosophies, both base policy on populism and both operate on an 'us and them' basis. They do have their similarities and pick up support in similar ways. The SNP have been a party of government since 2007. It may be that they tried an "anti-establishment" stratgey in the 80s and 90s, but positioning themselves as "anti-establishment" now runs totally counter to what they are trying to do. The gradualist wing of the SNP is utterly dominant in the party at present; that strategy states that people will listen to an argument about independence when you;ve provied that you can empty the bins and run other public services responsibly. So that point falls utterly. The nationalisms of UKIP and of the SNP are of an entirely different order. The SNP is much more inclined toards a civic nationalism at leadershop level, UKIP ( given its monomania about Romanians and Bulgarians, and its opportunist posturing on Islam) does not. I have also seen precious little evidence of an "us and them" strategy (whatever that is meant to mean). The SNP, whether you agree with them or not, tend to try and have an optimistic vision of Scotland's future, UKIP have a deeply pessimistic vision of our present, locate all our problems in the area of immigration and the EU (the SNP does not) and appear to want to take us all back to some imaginary golden era pre-Suez. Just because Alex Salmond was a populist leader, it does not follow that SNP policy is populist. Indeed, in areas like bus deregulation, their desire for low business rates, a tendency towards pacifism and military disengagement, you could argue that they run counter to the "populist" instincts of an electorate- certialy of an electorate willing to give UKIP an audience. Plus, if Scotland really is just as anti-Europe as the rest of the UK appears to be turning, then the SNP's unashamed pro-EU line can also hardly be put down as "populist". What you are saying is the equivalent of arguing that oranges and apples are broadly similar in that they are both fruit. It'd be conveient for a pro-Union Labour Party to try and claim that the SNP and UKIP are broadly similar, but the claim bears no scrutiny whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Looking at the stats, Scotlandis just as racist as England and Wales. In 2011/12 there were 5,389 racist incidents reported to the police. In the same period the total for England and Wales was 47,678 Of the total 53067, 9.85% of them were in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 enlighten me. I really can't see it. They both position themselves as 'outside the establishment', both want massive constitutional change, both pick up votes by trying to create disillusionment with status quo politics, both want to leave successful unions based on nationalistic philosophies, both base policy on populism and both operate on an 'us and them' basis. They do have their similarities and pick up support in similar ways. What, did I imagine Labour draping itself in the Union Jack, years of Blair and Brown extolling 'British exceptionalism' 'British jobs for British people', Ed Milliband striving to be seen as a crusader coming to take on 'the establishment' and coming to policy decisions based on triangulating focus groups to come up with the most populist rhetoric it can. As for dissolusionment with the status quo politics - anyone who isn't dissolusioned needs their head read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Neither do I, I don't believe anti-englishness makes up any significant part of that support, and given the support of Labour and the Tories by suh enlightened organisations as the Orange Order, I think the natural home for most of Scotland's small minded bigots actually lies outside the SNP. Mmm... I think you vastly underestimate the anti-English sentiment in Scotland, which find a home in the SNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Neither do I, I don't believe anti-englishness makes up any significant part of that support, and given the support of Labour and the Tories by suh enlightened organisations as the Orange Order, I think the natural home for most of Scotland's small minded bigots actually lies outside the SNP. Spot on. I believe UK labour (Scottish branch) are courting the support of the orange order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Spot on. I believe UK labour (Scottish branch) are courting the support of the orange order. This is just lies isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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