Holyrood '16 polls and predictions

[Peppino Impastato]

I'm fairly convinced that however bad SLab's performance in May is they still won't learn anything from it.

Instead we will see some political opportunist try to exploit the situation for his/her personal benefit by dumping poor wee Keiza. In some respects it's an understandable move as this election might be the one where the SNP peaks and Labour hits it's lowest practical position.

Sadly a leadership based on personal self aggrandisement is not going to help create any real left-of-centre, progressive political party which is what SLab needs to become if it is going to contribute to Scottish politics in the years ahead.

Why is that Sad? You totally contradict yourself, stating labour has nothing to contribute and it's ma shame they don't morph into something they are patently not in order that they can contribute.

How about a party with nothing to contribute just dies as is the natural way of things. Scotland has no need for labour anymore, they have no role. Put them out of their misery a trip to see the farmer is what labour in Scotland need.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Why is that Sad? You totally contradict yourself, stating labour has nothing to contribute and it's ma shame they don't morph into something they are patently not in order that they can contribute. How about a party with nothing to contribute just dies as is the natural way of things. Scotland has no need for labour anymore, they have no role. Put them out of their misery a trip to see the farmer is what labour in Scotland need.

It's sad because there is a role for a democratic socialist or social democratic alternative to the SNP but Labour has failed abysmally to take up that mantle. They could have been a constructive opposition to the SNP - instead we have a party who provides no raison d'être for people to vote only negatives about who people should not vote for.

[Peppino Impastato]

It's sad because there is a role for a democratic socialist or social democratic alternative to the SNP but Labour has failed abysmally to take up that mantle. They could have been a constructive opposition to the SNP - instead we have a party who provides no raison d'être for people to vote only negatives about who people should not vote for.

No there's not, that's what the SNP are, there's hardly a point having a social democratic party as the main opposition to a social democratic party where they differ only on the constitution.

That really does lead to bad democracy where the opposition take positions that are hysterically stupid and detrimental just to oppose the SNP such as the 1p tax farce which would have actually hurt poor people. On top of that they oppose policies they should support just cause the SNP propose them.

Labour aren't capable of being a proper opposition for these reasons, the only party who could provide a real opposition and counter balance is the tories.

As I said theIis no need for labour in Scotland now, they have no role to play.

[Wee Willie]

Why is that Sad? You totally contradict yourself, stating labour has nothing to contribute and it's ma shame they don't morph into something they are patently not in order that they can contribute. How about a party with nothing to contribute just dies as is the natural way of things. Scotland has no need for labour anymore, they have no role. Put them out of their misery a trip to see the farmer is what labour in Scotland need.

Surely better a trip tae the vet?

 

It's sad because there is a role for a democratic socialist or social democratic alternative to the SNP but Labour has failed abysmally to take up that mantle. They could have been a constructive opposition to the SNP - instead we have a party who provides no raison d'être for people to vote only negatives about who people should not vote for.

 

I agree, but only in an independent Scotland.

If such a party is born then I for one would probably support them.

What we don't want just now is any viable opposition to the SNP.

That would only split the independence vote.

Let's keep the status quo for the noo and worry about opposition after indy.

[Peppino Impastato]

If labour had there way poor people in Scotland would now be getting taxed more and the new forth bridge wouldn't even be started yet, just to oppose the snp. So Scotland loses out and the governance of Scotland is worse just because labour hate the snp.

Anyone who thinks that shower of weirdos is capable of providing any sort of decent and responsible opposition needs their head looked at. A party so bent out of shape but utter hatred for another is no use to anyone, a party that will lie, abandon it'soown principles and damage the country just to oppose the snp doesn't deserve to even exist let alone be the opposition.

There is no role for labour now, they're finished.

[Wee Willie]

If labour had there way poor people in Scotland would now be getting taxed more and the new forth bridge wouldn't even be started yet, just to oppose the snp. So Scotland loses out and the governance of Scotland is worse just because labour hate the snp.

Anyone who thinks that shower of weirdos is capable of providing any sort of decent and responsible opposition needs their head looked at. A party so bent out of shape but utter hatred for another is no use to anyone, a party that will lie, abandon it'soown principles and damage the country just to oppose the snp doesn't deserve to even exist let alone be the opposition.

There is no role for labour now, they're finished.

 

So a trip tae the vet, Aye?

 

In my post above I refer to a left-wing party after independence.

I would hope if one does appear it will have Socialist in it's name and no Labour.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No there's not, that's what the SNP are, there's hardly a point having a social democratic party as the main opposition to a social democratic party where they differ only on the constitution. That really does lead to bad democracy where the opposition take positions that are hysterically stupid and detrimental just to oppose the SNP such as the 1p tax farce which would have actually hurt poor people. On top of that they oppose policies they should support just cause the SNP propose them. Labour aren't capable of being a proper opposition for these reasons, the only party who could provide a real opposition and counter balance is the tories. As I said theIis no need for labour in Scotland now, they have no role to play.

You clear missed the "constructive opposition" part of my post.

Labour has not done that and are unlikely to.

PS The SNP are not social democratic but that is a completely different debate.

[Wee Willie]

You clear missed the "constructive opposition" part of my post.

Labour has not done that and are unlikely to.

PS The SNP are not social democratic but that is a completely different debate.

 

You are correct but that is nitpicking.

Wait until after Indy then we can discuss the various pros and cons of the individual parties.

I look forward to that.

[Peppino Impastato]

The Scottish National Party (SNP) (Scottish Gaelic: Pàrtaidh Nàiseanta na h-Alba, Scots: Scots Naitional Pairtie) is a Scottish nationalist[14][15] and social-democratic[16][17][18] political party in Scotland.

[Granny Danger]

You are correct but that is nitpicking.

Wait until after Indy then we can discuss the various pros and cons of the individual parties.

I look forward to that.

It's not a question of discussing the pros and cons of individual parties, it's a case of offering a vehicle for folk who hold a political view to become engaged in the process AND offer an opposition view to the existing SNP positions; I believe the latter is important in a democratic society.

At the moment there is no credible political party left of the SNP; Labour SHOULD be that party but, laughably, they are further to the right of the SNP on a range of issues. Meanwhile the SNP are not nearly as radical in action as they are in word, and I say that as a member.

Independence is inevitable IMO and I'd like to see a society that includes politically engaged and politically active people when that happens. Even if some/most/all of these people oppose Indepence when it becomes a fait accompli then folk will be required to accept it and shape their politics to the new reality.

The idea that there is nothing to be done in arguing the case for progressive politics until Independence happens is just wrong.

[Peppino Impastato]

It's not a question of discussing the pros and cons of individual parties, it's a case of offering a vehicle for folk who hold a political view to become engaged in the process AND offer an opposition view to the existing SNP positions; I believe the latter is important in a democratic society.

At the moment there is no credible political party left of the SNP; Labour SHOULD be that party but, laughably, they are further to the right of the SNP on a range of issues. Meanwhile the SNP are not nearly as radical in action as they are in word, and I say that as a member.

Independence is inevitable IMO and I'd like to see a society that includes politically engaged and politically active people when that happens. Even if some/most/all of these people oppose Indepence when it becomes a fait accompli then folk will be required to accept it and shape their politics to the new reality.

The idea that there is nothing to be done in arguing the case for progressive politics until Independence happens is just wrong.

So you're looking for a party which you describe as right of the SNP (and which is now classed as a centre right party) to provide opposition from the left of the SNP. Do you see a slight problem There?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The Scottish National Party (SNP) (Scottish Gaelic: Pàrtaidh Nàiseanta na h-Alba, Scots: Scots Naitional Pairtie) is a Scottish nationalist[14][15] and social-democratic[16][17][18] political party in Scotland.

As I said - a completely separate debate.

There have been a history of parties who called themselves social democratic who were neither democratic nor socially inclined.

Just because a party uses the term to describe itself does not mean that is what it is.

If it did the NASDP or the SPUG would have both been classed as a socialist when clearly they were not.

Imho the SNP is a nationalist party that is relatively broad-based. It has some policies that could be classed as social democratic and others ( particularly in terms of economic policy) that I would class as Christian democratic. Having a broad-spectrum appeal makes it easier to focus on its raison d'être of independence. It has generally appealed across the middle of the political spectrum not out of any political conviction but because that is where most of the votes they need are. Move to the left and the SNP would lose the economic conservatives on the right. Move to the right and they lose those on the left who want left-of-centre social policies.

[Wee Willie]

It's not a question of discussing the pros and cons of individual parties, it's a case of offering a vehicle for folk who hold a political view to become engaged in the process AND offer an opposition view to the existing SNP positions; I believe the latter is important in a democratic society.

At the moment there is no credible political party left of the SNP; Labour SHOULD be that party but, laughably, they are further to the right of the SNP on a range of issues. Meanwhile the SNP are not nearly as radical in action as they are in word, and I say that as a member.

Independence is inevitable IMO and I'd like to see a society that includes politically engaged and politically active people when that happens. Even if some/most/all of these people oppose Indepence when it becomes a fait accompli then folk will be required to accept it and shape their politics to the new reality.

The idea that there is nothing to be done in arguing the case for progressive politics until Independence happens is just wrong.

it's a case of offering a vehicle for folk who hold a political view to become engaged in the process AND offer an opposition view to the existing SNP positions; I believe the latter is important in a democratic society.

And so do I.

I think you would agree with me that Scotland isn't in a democratic society/union just now.

Any talk of engaging in the political process is surely a wee bit premature.

Wait until we are independent then discuss.

You know it makes sense.

 

The idea that there is nothing to be done in arguing the case for progressive politics until Independence happens is just wrong.

But discussing it just now is meaningless without the ability to change the process or the politics.

[Peppino Impastato]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/scottish-labour-abandoned-social-democracy-snp-and-now-its-paying-price

I don't believe the snp wrote their own wiki page, that's not how they class themselves that's how they are classed. How you would class them IsIirrelevant.

You obviously will dismiss wiki as a source so here's the new statesman

[Wee Willie]

As I said - a completely separate debate.

There have been a history of parties who called themselves social democratic who were neither democratic nor socially inclined.

Just because a party uses the term to describe itself does not mean that is what it is.

If it did the NASDP or the SPUG would have both been classed as a socialist when clearly they were not.

Imho the SNP is a nationalist party that is relatively broad-based. It has some policies that could be classed as social democratic and others ( particularly in terms of economic policy) that I would class as Christian democratic. Having a broad-spectrum appeal makes it easier to focus on its raison d'être of independence. It has generally appealed across the middle of the political spectrum not out of any political conviction but because that is where most of the votes they need are. Move to the left and the SNP would lose the economic conservatives on the right. Move to the right and they lose those on the left who want left-of-centre social policies.

 

And that's what I've been saying all along.

The SNP has to be broad based to get as many votes for independence as possible.

It's really got to appeal to the left, right & middle of the road voters to persuade them to tick the right (no pun intended) box on the ballot paper.

Does anyone disagree with that?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/scottish-labour-abandoned-social-democracy-snp-and-now-its-paying-price

I don't believe the snp wrote their own wiki page, that's not how they class themselves that's how they are classed. How you would class them IsIirrelevant.

You obviously will dismiss wiki as a source so here's the new statesman

The Labour Party classes themselves as a democratic socialist party when they are neither democratic nor socialist.

But by your definition they are democratic socialists because that is what they call themselves and what others would class them.

By the way whoever wrote that piece has no clue what social democracy is.

[Peppino Impastato]

The Labour Party classes themselves as a democratic socialist party when they are neither democratic nor socialist.

But by your definition they are democratic socialists because that is what they call themselves and what others would class them.

By the way whoever wrote that piece has no clue what social democracy is.

yeah and you do. Others actually class labour as centre right these days that's why I said that. How labour or you class labour is of no relevance.

[BerwickMad]

And that's what I've been saying all along.

The SNP has to be broad based to get as many votes for independence as possible.

It's really got to appeal to the left, right & middle of the road voters to persuade them to tick the right (no pun intended) box on the ballot paper.

Does anyone disagree with that?

I wouldn't. It's quite a hard game to play, especially over such a long period. Although independence is an aim which is always going help keep people loyal, as a political geek I find it extremely impressive that they've managed to keep everyone generally in line without any major fall outs or splits.

[Wee Willie]

I wouldn't. It's quite a hard game to play, especially over such a long period. Although independence is an aim which is always going help keep people loyal, as a political geek I find it extremely impressive that they've managed to keep everyone generally in line without any major fall outs or splits.

 

Thanks for that although it's no rocket science that to gain independence the SNP has to appeal to as much of the electorate in Scotland as possible.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I wouldn't. It's quite a hard game to play, especially over such a long period. Although independence is an aim which is always going help keep people loyal, as a political geek I find it extremely impressive that they've managed to keep everyone generally in line without any major fall outs or splits.

I think they've learned from previous internal battles that taking the progressive route to independence is the only one that is viable in the long run. Fundamentalism within the nationalist movement is all but dead. Winning in 2007, again in 2011, the rout of the GE and winning again in 2016 cements progressive nationalism as that only viable option.

Also being competent helps.

Mind you a 2-year-old would look competent next to some Labour politicians.