StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 AT THAT POINT, IF MURRAY LEADS THE 2009 POINTS TOTALS ('Race Points' if you like) THEN HE WILL BE No 1 IN THE WORLD. If he leads the ranking points total in 2009 he'll be Number 1 come the US Open, yes. Race points are/were different to ranking points, however. They're staggered differently, have different amounts, and don't rely on what the player has won in the corresponding tournament the previous year. As the race points are set to zero on Dec 31st, your race total come the same point will almost certainly be different. Given Nadal has a 6000 point ranking lead on Murray, then depending on what tournaments he does well in, he could still be Number 1 at the US Open despite winning less race points than Murray since Jan 1st. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this. If the race points were the same amounts as the ranking points, then yes, but they're not. However, you're correct for this year, as there's only one set of points to be won, which is different from previous years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 As the race points are set to zero on Dec 31st, your race total come the same point will almost certainly be different. Given Nadal has a 6000 point ranking lead on Murray, then depending on what tournaments he does well in, he could still be Number 1 at the US Open despite winning less race points than Murray since Jan 1st. No. This is fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 No. No what? No, the race points aren't reset at the end of the year? (yes they are) No, Murray could have more race points yet still be behind Nadal in the rankings? (yes he could) As said before, Murray could win the Aussie Open and Wimbledon, and still be behind Nadal in the rankings come the US Open. Are you going to deny this as well? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 No what?No, Murray could have more race points yet still be behind Nadal in the rankings? (yes he could) This one. If Murray has more race points than Nadal at the start of the U.S. Open, he will be above him in the world rankings. If Murray is beating everyone in the race at the start of the U.S. Open, he will be world no 1. Anyway more on the actual tennis, I do agree with Federer that Murray should not be favourite for the U.S. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If Murray has more race points than Nadal at the start of the U.S. Open, he will be above him in the world rankings. If Murray is beating everyone in the race at the start of the U.S. Open, he will be world no 1. Well yes, technically this season that will be the case, given there's only one ranking list this year. But my point was being made before I knew there wasn't a separate race list this season, as I'm suspecting so was yours. If not, I apologize. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWeb Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) If they get a favourable draws, either Ernest Gulbis or Marin Cilic could be real dark horses for this tournament. Based on what ? For me he is one of the most overhyped ball bashers on the circuit. He is the Wayne Mardle of tennis ie everyone seems to think he'll give the top players a game and 9 times out of 10 he is thrashed. Way too inconsistent to challenge the big boys over 3 sets never mind 5. Edited January 13, 2009 by RedWeb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Based on what ? For me he is one of the most overhyped ball bashers on the circuit. He is the Wayne Mardle of tennis ie everyone seems to think he'll give the top players a game and 9 times out of 10 he is thrashed. Way too inconsistent to challenge the big boys over 3 sets never mind 5. I bet they thought that about Tsonga last year..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If he leads the ranking points total in 2009 he'll be Number 1 come the US Open, yes. Race points are/were different to ranking points, however. They're staggered differently, have different amounts, and don't rely on what the player has won in the corresponding tournament the previous year. As the race points are set to zero on Dec 31st, your race total come the same point will almost certainly be different. Given Nadal has a 6000 point ranking lead on Murray, then depending on what tournaments he does well in, he could still be Number 1 at the US Open despite winning less race points than Murray since Jan 1st. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this. If the race points were the same amounts as the ranking points, then yes, but they're not. However, you're correct for this year, as there's only one set of points to be won, which is different from previous years. No what? No, the race points aren't reset at the end of the year? (yes they are) No, Murray could have more race points yet still be behind Nadal in the rankings? (yes he could) As said before, Murray could win the Aussie Open and Wimbledon, and still be behind Nadal in the rankings come the US Open. Are you going to deny this as well? Well yes, technically this season that will be the case, given there's only one ranking list this year. But my point was being made before I knew there wasn't a separate race list this season, as I'm suspecting so was yours. If not, I apologize. Whether there was a separate list or not is irrelevant. Whether the race resets to zero or not is fairly irrelevant (in fact it is what makes our case, not yours) Whether the actual points awarded towards the "race" were different is also irrelevant. What is a matter of fact is that the player who has acquired the most "race" points in any given 12 months will also be the World No 1 at that same point. You have in fact already conceded that to be the case in one of your previous posts at December 31st. Logically it will be exactly the case at any other point in time you care to name too. Yes, the race list at that time won't match the rankings list because they are based over a different period but if you were to build up a nominal race list for the 12 month period you were looking at it would in fact be the same (or near as damn it depending on some tournament date changes). If you want to look at June 30th then the race points from July 1st previous year to December 31st added to the race lists to that point in the current year will result in a race table that matches the world rankings, certainly in all the positions that matter. Now, I haven't actually checked is figures but I presume when VI says that Murray has gathered the most rankings points between the start of US Open 2008 and now that this is a fact (and I'm also presuming it was also the case at December 31st but if the Abu Dhabi tournament affected that position then I may be wrong). It is therefore a fact that if Murray was to lead the list (were one to be running this year) at the commencement of the US Open 2009 he would be a definite Number 1 in the world. He'd have acquired the most points between US Open and Dec 31st 2008 and most points between January 1st and US Open 2009. Your fixation on movements between points achieved last year and this appears to be blinding you to what is an incredibly obvious point. Back over the net to you then........................... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well yes, technically this season that will be the case, given there's only one ranking list this year. But my point was being made before I knew there wasn't a separate race list this season, as I'm suspecting so was yours. If not, I apologize. My point is not based on no race list or whatever, mine is on the same facts as yours, but I still disagree. I think we should give up, but since SD is on my side (the good one) I am claiming victory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Skyline, Stewarty, this is the dullest argument I've ever read on here! I'm not sure whats worse, you two for having the argument, or me for reading all the way through it. Btw, I know nothing about the scoring system, but it looks like SD is right. Well, at least he's the only one who hasn't contradicted himself and retreated into semantics! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Skyline, Stewarty, this is the dullest argument I've ever read on here! I'm not sure whats worse, you two for having the argument, or me for reading all the way through it.Btw, I know nothing about the scoring system, but it looks like SD is right. Well, at least he's the only one who hasn't contradicted himself and retreated into semantics! Ach it's a debate, not an argument. We haven't actually fallen out about anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Just to further clarify. Stewart seems to be convinced that because the actual points awarded for the ATP Race table were different this means the effects on standing are different. Well they could be I suppose but only at the lower rankings. The points available for Grand Slam winners, Masters events, the Masters Cup and International series events were awarded in exactly the same ratios so inherently the same people ended up in the same positions and with the same relative points differences. Where there WAS a difference was that the rankings system includes points for tournaments that the ATP Race does not count. However, both of them only count the best 18 results in the 12 month period so only for lower ranked players with poor results in the major tourneys is that likely to have any effect. For the top 4 or 5 players without a shadow of a doubt, the ATP Race table reflects the World rankings table in ANY given 12 month period you want to look at. I stand by the point. It is a fact that if Murray acquired the most points of any tennis player between US Open 2008 and December 31st 2008 then, if he also leads the ATP Race table for 2009 when the US Open starts (presuming there is one) he WILL be number one in the official rankings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Btw, I know nothing about the scoring system, but it looks like SD is right. Well, at least he's the only one who hasn't contradicted himself and retreated into semantics! I'm afraid I'm right and SD is backing me up, grazie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Skyline, Stewarty, this is the dullest argument I've ever read on here! Oh, the irony. I stand by the point. It is a fact that if Murray acquired the most points of any tennis player between US Open 2008 and December 31st 2008 then, if he also leads the ATP Race table for 2009 when the US Open starts (presuming there is one) he WILL be number one in the official rankings. Aye, he probably would be. What is a matter of fact is that the player who has acquired the most "race" points in any given 12 months will also be the World No 1 at that same point. If the Race points were being accrued now, Murray would be Number 1 this week, however he's still Number 4 in the World Rankings. That's because race points pre 1st January don't count. This will be theoretically relevant all the way up until the end of the season, when the two lists should technically match each other (particularly for the top players), as BOTH will cover the preceeding 12 months. Therefore, although it is highly likely, given his good form in the 2nd half of last season, should Murray be race leader in August he'd also be World Number 1, it's not 100% guaranteed. I can totally understand where you both are coming from, and ordinarily I'd agree, but I've followed both sets of rankings closely enough over the last fifteen years or so to know anomalies between both lists happen fairly regularly. I actually can't believe we're debating something that's not even happening this year. Anyway, this is my last word on this. I may well be wrong, but it's something we'll never be able to prove anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 if murray were to win the austrailian open, would he have a chance of moving higher up in the world rankings depending on where the other top three come in the competition? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 if murray were to win the austrailian open, would he have a chance of moving higher up in the world rankings depending on where the other top three come in the competition? If he wins it, he'll almost certainly move up to Number 3, as Djokovic is defending champion, and he's immediately ahead of him in the rankings. The difference in points right now is 3400. Djokovic will lose 2000 this week as the points for last year's tourney drop off this week (we think), whereas Murray should only lose 10 this week as he was a 1st round loser last year. Therefore the difference will be down to just under 1400. Now, presuming there's no other points to go on for them both between now and the end of the tournament, this means should Murray win in Melbourne, he'll get 2000 points, meaning Djokovic would have to get 600 or more to stay number 3 (which by my admittedly erratic calculations, means reaching the semi finals, as the quarters only nets 500 now) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Aye, he probably would be. If the Race points were being accrued now, Murray would be Number 1 this week, however he's still Number 4 in the World Rankings. That's because race points pre 1st January don't count. This will be theoretically relevant all the way up until the end of the season, when the two lists should technically match each other (particularly for the top players), as BOTH will cover the preceeding 12 months. Therefore, although it is highly likely, given his good form in the 2nd half of last season, should Murray be race leader in August he'd also be World Number 1, it's not 100% guaranteed. I can totally understand where you both are coming from, and ordinarily I'd agree, but I've followed both sets of rankings closely enough over the last fifteen years or so to know anomalies between both lists happen fairly regularly. I actually can't believe we're debating something that's not even happening this year. Anyway, this is my last word on this. I may well be wrong, but it's something we'll never be able to prove anymore. The bit in bold is as completely irrelevant now as it was about 20 posts ago yet you keep trotting it out. He wouldn't however be No 1 in a race list right now covering 12 months. He'd be No 4 which would match his world ranking because inherently for the top players the race list over any 12 months will match their ranking order. However, given that we've gone from you claiming it would be unlikely that Murray would be No 1 by the US Open even if he beats Nadal in every event and it would take a complete collapse by Nadal for it to happen, to you accepting Murray would "probably" be No 1 (he definitely would be incidentally), I'm going to take it that this is as close to an admission that you were wrong as we're going to get. We can stop the debate and go think about something else now if you'd prefer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Phoenix Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think SD is correct, simply on the basis that he's an expert on X Factor. Anyways Stewarty has a habit of posting "Correct" when he agrees with someone, so it would be great to see him do that now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If he wins it, he'll almost certainly move up to Number 3, as Djokovic is defending champion, and he's immediately ahead of him in the rankings. The difference in points right now is 3400. Djokovic will lose 2000 this week as the points for last year's tourney drop off this week (we think), whereas Murray should only lose 10 this week as he was a 1st round loser last year. Therefore the difference will be down to just under 1400. Now, presuming there's no other points to go on for them both between now and the end of the tournament, this means should Murray win in Melbourne, he'll get 2000 points, meaning Djokovic would have to get 600 or more to stay number 3 (which by my admittedly erratic calculations, means reaching the semi finals, as the quarters only nets 500 now) I agree with your calculations though I don't think your opening conclusion matches them. I wouldn't have said it was "almost certain" that he'll move up to 3 by winning. It's hardly a reach to suggest even if he does win that Djokovic would make at least semi finals given that the four of them are fairly clearly the best four in the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virtual Insanity Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I wish I was getting more credit in this debate. I'm correct, I merely delegated to a more respected poster to go into the point in greater depth. I agree with Stewarty though, apart from the fact that SD has proved it numerous times, we'll never be able to prove it so we should just stop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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