Andy Murray The Greatest and General Tennis Chat

[RedWeb]

What date is the top 8 players in London and is the competition getting played on grass courts?

Towards the end of November and no, its played on carpet at the O2 as it has been for the last two seasons.

[blue4578]

considering the up swing in performance combined with the extremely lax and easy to beat testing regime plus the ITF's record on PED cover ups i think a cynical view point is a natural one to take.

For what it's worth, I think that Nadal has a lot of question marks hanging over him.

If you read this article with an open mind and think about what was going on at the times it refers to, it certainly raises questions: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

In my opinion, the ATP has two big problems: match fixing and performance enhancing drugs

Regarding match fixing, I have previously spoken for over an hour about this with Andrew "Bert" Black, the founder of Betfair, when he was still pretty much running the company. It was just after the Davydenko v Vassallo Arguello match in the summer of 2007. Betfair, as it has with many other sporting bodies, has a memorandum of understanding with the ATP, which allows them to share information regarding suspicious betting patterns. I strongly got the impression that the ATP would rather gambling went away and rather than dealing with the problem properly, they are happy to sweep it under the carpet. Over the years there have been serious instances of match fixing that have gone unpunished. The only people banned for gambling related offenses have been low-ranking Italian players betting 5 Euros on matches not involving them. These players were stupid enough to use online accounts under their own name, but the real guilty parties who should have been banned for life and imprisoned, have always got away with it.

The ATP take a similar attitude to PED's. It would seem that they think "why have a big scandal when we don't need to?" They are happy to maintain the status quo while the problem bubbles along under the surface. One day, there is going to be a big scandal that the ATP can't suppress, and people will quite rightly ask why the problem wasn't dealt with properly before. If you look at baseball now (search "MLB steroid era" for more information), that is what could happen to tennis. Great players from the 1990's are being hauled before courts because of allegedly lying about taking PED's. Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are the two biggest names caught up in it, and both have recently faced the possibility of going to jail. Why is there a problem? Baseball had lax drug testing for many years and certain drugs were not banned. The players union tried to stop the problem being investigated, but eventually gave in. The Mitchell Report blew the whole thing wide open, and got it all out into the public domain.

I don't think anyone knows the true extend of the drugs problem in tennis. However if you look at the amount of money that even someone ranked 50 or 60 can make from tennis, it is obvious that there must be a serious temptation there to look for any advantage possible to advance your career. The drug testing program in tennis is woefully inadequate, so it would appear almost certain that some players are cheating and getting away with. A couple have been caught and banned, but that is probably only the tip of the iceberg in my opinion.

Food for thought anyway.

[nessies long lost ghost]

For what it's worth, I think that Nadal has a lot of question marks hanging over him.

If you read this article with an open mind and think about what was going on at the times it refers to, it certainly raises questions: http://tennishasaste...fael-nadal.html

In my opinion, the ATP has two big problems: match fixing and performance enhancing drugs

Regarding match fixing, I have previously spoken for over an hour about this with Andrew "Bert" Black, the founder of Betfair, when he was still pretty much running the company. It was just after the Davydenko v Vassallo Arguello match in the summer of 2007. Betfair, as it has with many other sporting bodies, has a memorandum of understanding with the ATP, which allows them to share information regarding suspicious betting patterns. I strongly got the impression that the ATP would rather gambling went away and rather than dealing with the problem properly, they are happy to sweep it under the carpet. Over the years there have been serious instances of match fixing that have gone unpunished. The only people banned for gambling related offenses have been low-ranking Italian players betting 5 Euros on matches not involving them. These players were stupid enough to use online accounts under their own name, but the real guilty parties who should have been banned for life and imprisoned, have always got away with it.

The ATP take a similar attitude to PED's. It would seem that they think "why have a big scandal when we don't need to?" They are happy to maintain the status quo while the problem bubbles along under the surface. One day, there is going to be a big scandal that the ATP can't suppress, and people will quite rightly ask why the problem wasn't dealt with properly before. If you look at baseball now (search "MLB steroid era" for more information), that is what could happen to tennis. Great players from the 1990's are being hauled before courts because of allegedly lying about taking PED's. Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are the two biggest names caught up in it, and both have recently faced the possibility of going to jail. Why is there a problem? Baseball had lax drug testing for many years and certain drugs were not banned. The players union tried to stop the problem being investigated, but eventually gave in. The Mitchell Report blew the whole thing wide open, and got it all out into the public domain.

I don't think anyone knows the true extend of the drugs problem in tennis. However if you look at the amount of money that even someone ranked 50 or 60 can make from tennis, it is obvious that there must be a serious temptation there to look for any advantage possible to advance your career. The drug testing program in tennis is woefully inadequate, so it would appear almost certain that some players are cheating and getting away with. A couple have been caught and banned, but that is probably only the tip of the iceberg in my opinion.

Food for thought anyway.

Whatever happened to Gasquet after his drug "encounter"?

I think I seen him play Murray twice in big matches recently, Wimbledon was one of them I think , I thought he would have recieved a life ban from the sport.

[blue4578]

Two-year ban for a first offence, unless you can prove there were mitigating circumstances. Gasquet was caught having taken cocaine. He managed to talk himself out of a long ban by saying it came from kissing a woman in a nightclub.

Martina Hingis got a two-year ban for testing positive for cocaine, and decided to retire (for the second time) instead of contesting it. Naturally she protested her innocence.

[RedWeb]

Martina Hingis got a two-year ban for testing positive for cocaine

That explains a lot. She must have been oot of her heid when she decided to marry Radek Stepanek.

[nessies long lost ghost]

Two-year ban for a first offence, unless you can prove there were mitigating circumstances. Gasquet was caught having taken cocaine. He managed to talk himself out of a long ban by saying it came from kissing a woman in a nightclub.

Martina Hingis got a two-year ban for testing positive for cocaine, and decided to retire (for the second time) instead of contesting it. Naturally she protested her innocence.

Cheers, He got away with that excuse

FFS

[T_S_A_R]

the first time we discussed this you bailed out the debate without answering this question. do you believe any of the following players used PEDs during their career: maruesmo, mary pierce, capriati, serena williams or sam stosur?

H_B????

[blue4578]

I don't think you can point the finger at specific players without hard evidence. You can ask questions, and things can look suspicious, but you can never be 100% sure.

Personally, I would be very surprised if any less than 20 of the top 100 men's players have taken PED's at some point. Hopefully it'll all come out in the wash one day.

That explains a lot. She must have been oot of her heid when she decided to marry Radek Stepanek.

She never went through with it though. Nicole Vaidisova did, giving up her tennis career in the process.

Edited October 19, 2011 by blue4578

[H_B]

H_B????

I have no idea. Neither do you.

Do you seriously think Andy Murray has taken Performance Enhancing Drugs? Really?

Tennis is a sport where talent plays a ridiculously high factor. That's not to say you don't have to work on your fitness, and it isn't required to be at the very top, but it's not like nonsense "sports" like cycling or running, that are endurance based, not talent based.

I just don't think it's a huge problem in tennis. Recreational drug use is far more likely to be an issue to be honest.

[T_S_A_R]

if we only ever discussed things we could prove the boards would be very quiet.

i believe andy murray may have used PEDs. he under went a fairly drastic physical transformation post wimbledon 2008 after he started training at the university of miami which is notoriously corrupt and no doubt rife with HGH abuse (there is no HGH testing in either NCAA football or the NFL). combine this with his very odd anti testing comments and you have grounds for suspicion imo.

what makes you believe that andy murray is so particularly virtuous he wouldn't use PEDs? pro sportsmen using PEDs is not an uncommon phenomena. i don't believe that andy murray is on the same sort of programs that i and many others suspect djokovic and nadal use but i wouldn't be suprised if he used HGH and other products to jump a level physically.

until tennis improves both it's testing and transparency the finger of suspicion will continue to be pointed at it. the media are happy enough to turn a blind eye to many issues - and in the case of rusedski embrace drugs cheats - but i believe that as has happened in other sports the truth will eventually come out.

edit - gun to head: jennifer capriati, clean or not?

Edited October 19, 2011 by T_S_A_R

[H_B]

what makes you believe that andy murray is so particularly virtuous he wouldn't use PEDs?

He doesn't need to. If you'd ever met Judy Murray, or knew her background in the game, you might have a different view. If you think she'd allow her son to go down that road, or fail to recognise that he had, you are barking.

If anything, it's far more likely that the world number 90 would do it in an attempt to become the world number 20.

Tennis is a talent based sport. I'm not saying every tennis player is clean, but to suggest there is a large scale problem in the sport is laughable.

[T_S_A_R]

Tennis is a talent based sport. I'm not saying every tennis player is clean, but to suggest there is a large scale problem in the sport is laughable.

djokovic is no more talented this year than last year.

his up turn in performance is soley down to improved athleticism.

capriati?

[blue4578]

until tennis improves both it's testing and transparency the finger of suspicion will continue to be pointed at it.

This is the key point. Like I said up the thread, the ATP clearly would rather avoid scandal so that the gravy train can keep chugging merrily along. If there was proper testing, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If match fixing was properly investigated and the criminals pursued as they would be in other sports, that would be much less of an issue too. I could name at least ten male players that I would bet everything I own on having been involved in match fixing. The ATP and ITF are weak governing bodies.

The integrity of sport is all important. When people start to have doubts about what they're seeing, then everyone suffers.

[H_B]

This is the key point. Like I said up the thread, the ATP clearly would rather avoid scandal so that the gravy train can keep chugging merrily along. If there was proper testing, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

What's wrong with the current testing regime? What sports have better regimes than tennis and why?

Match fixing I am far more inclined to believe. Don't have any issue with that suggestion, especially in the Challenger events that you can now regularly bet on.

[T_S_A_R]

What's wrong with the current testing regime? What sports have better regimes than tennis and why?

there aren't many sports with worse testing than tennis. i doubt many sports have had so many high profile incidents of covering up positive tests.

leaked documents revealed that in 2009 the vast majority of top players missed OOC tests. including the missed tests very few players got more than 2 tests in a year. to be punished you have to miss 3 OOC tests in 18 months even though it seems unlikely that anyone will be tested that often. so bascially if you have zero or one strike and you think you may test positive you enter a false location and in the unlikely event you are selected you just chalk up another strike. with modern doping products you only test positive for 5-7 days. it seems to me that anyone who chooses to do so can dope with almost no risk of being caught.

the ITF's own website shows that there were only 10 OOC blood tests in 2010 for all the men and women on the elite testing program. there are a number of doping products that can only be detected by blood tests including, i believe, HGH and definitely CERA.

as for sports with better testing cycling, biathlon and baseball are 3. it seems that sports are only willing to implement serious testing when they are in danger of losing credibility and therefore money due to scandals.

[blue4578]

Match fixing I am far more inclined to believe. Don't have any issue with that suggestion, especially in the Challenger events that you can now regularly bet on.

Match fixing goes on in the grand slams and Masters 1000 events. There's obviously no money to be made fixing challenger matches. The guilty parties tend to be either Russian, Italian or Argentinian. There are at least eight players currently ranked in the top 100 that I am absolutely certain have fixed matches, with at least another four or five where I would be 90% sure. The problem was at its highest in 2007, but certainly still goes on now.

[blue4578]

What's wrong with the current testing regime? What sports have better regimes than tennis and why?

I know less about the drugs testing program than I do about the match fixing. However as far as I know (I haven't looked up the precise details) a player could miss drugs tests and this fact would never be made public. I believe even a positive test will not necessarily be made public, as I have seen claimed by a few people that certain players have served suspensions quietly, and just claimed publicly that they were injured. I have also noticed rumours in a few different places that a certain very highly ranked player alledgedly missed almost the whole of 2010 due to a failed drugs test that was covered up with a story about an injury. Obviously this may well be untrue, but given the way tennis handles drugs testing then anything is possible. If they were transparent, tested more often and more rigorously, then stories like that wouldn't appear. It also seems to me that players can easily talk themselves out of a suspension, or to a vastly reduced one.

Anyway, it is what it is. It won't stop me or most other people watching tennis. I just happen to think that the governing bodies are extremely weak, although this is the case in many other sports as well.

[T_S_A_R]

a swedish newspaper has revealed the players under suspicision by the tennis integrity unit for match fixing.

here it is translated by google

41 tennis names on the black list

Nikolay Davydenko is one of the players suspected of place matches.

Photo: ELISE Amendola / AP

October 19th, 2011 at 08:38, Updated: 19 October 2011 at 22:11

Two tennis players have been suspended for life to add games and more in the pipeline. Altogether there are 41 players on the tennis blacklist - 3 are included in the Stockholm Open.

SvD can today publish the secret list of players suspected of add matches and Tennis Integrity Unit (TIU), the gaming company Betfair and the ATP tour driving keeps an extra close eye on.

The list is divided into two categories:

• 20 players (14 men and six women) of which several were involved in matches where the allegations of cheating have been so strong that it led to an investigation. Other players have landed on the list because they repeatedly been involved in matches where the bookmakers have seen illogical betting history.

The article continues ... • 21 players (15 men and 6 women) are on the warning list, which means a lower degree of suspicion.

One of them lost the Stockholm Open's first round against a much lower ranked opponents.

-From what I can see the odds history, it was nothing strange in the match, said John Nilsson, daytrader on Betfair and expert on betting in tennis.

The intense competition in tennis means that crashes are common and there are no sensations in themselves receiving warning bells ringing - they do it already before or during the match.

How?

-Before a match you notice it because the odds of the player to lose going up too much, while turnover is abnormally high, says John Nilsson.

And during a match?

-The money that people want to bet goes against the usual odds without any explanation.

Sometimes it is obvious cheating. As in the second round of a small ATP tournament where top players were 1-0 in sets against a low ranked player. Yet was spent huge sums on the low-ranked player who also won. Total turnover of the game seven million which is ten times more than normal than for a match of the character.

Betfair quickly realized that something was wrong, stopped playing the game, refused to pay out winnings and started with TIU an investigation was closed.

Many cheaters go free because the evidence does not agree, but John Nilsson believes that there is another explanation for why no more were killed.

Tennis and I mean players, ITF, ATP and WTA have in my opinion, the attitude that all the crap swept under the carpet. Doping, add games and other things do not reach the light of day.

-There is no doubt a deliberate strategy to hide violations. The aim is probably to the sport should look clean and nice. There is probably also a fear of losing TV contracts and sponsors.

How common is it to add games?

-Less common than a few years ago. Of the 4,000 matches played in a year is maybe 50 or so rigged in the sense that a player deliberately loses while his companions are investing money in that to happen.

As is commonly add games?

It's almost always in small ATP tournaments, like when the first round.

The two players suspended for life for deliberately losing the Austrian Daniel Köllerer, 27, and Serbs David Savic, 26. They also received 625,000 and 680,000 crowns in fines.

The Black List

Philipp Kohlschreiber

Potito Starace

Andreas Seppi

Fabio Fognini

Janko Tipsarevic

Michael Llodra

Nikolay Davydenko

Teymuraz Gabashvili

Victor Crivoi

Christophe Rochus

Oscar Hernandez

Yevgeny Korolev

Filippo Volandri

Wayne Odesnik

Victoria Azarenka

Agnieszka Radwanska

Francesca Schiavone

Sara Errani

Maria Kirilenko

Kateryna Bondarenko

.. And 21 on the warning list: Brian Dabul, Eduardo Scwhank, Jeremy Chardy, Simone Bolelli, Lukasz Kubot *, Carlos Berlocq, Igor Kunitsyn, Andrei Golubev *, Alex Bogomolov, Somdev Devvar-man *, Steve Darcis, Marin Cilic, Flavio Cipolla, Ivo Karlovic, Viktor Troicki, Flavia Pennetta, Roberta Vinci, Virginie Razzano, Romina Oprandi, Dominika Cibulkova, Eleni Daniilidou. * Participating in this year's Stockholm Open.

Edited October 20, 2011 by T_S_A_R

[nessies long lost ghost]

a swedish newspaper has revealed the players under suspicision by the tennis integrity unit for match fixing.

here it is translated by google

41 tennis names on the black list

Nikolay Davydenko is one of the players suspected of place matches.

Photo: ELISE Amendola / AP

October 19th, 2011 at 08:38, Updated: 19 October 2011 at 22:11

Two tennis players have been suspended for life to add games and more in the pipeline. Altogether there are 41 players on the tennis blacklist - 3 are included in the Stockholm Open.

SvD can today publish the secret list of players suspected of add matches and Tennis Integrity Unit (TIU), the gaming company Betfair and the ATP tour driving keeps an extra close eye on.

The list is divided into two categories:

• 20 players (14 men and six women) of which several were involved in matches where the allegations of cheating have been so strong that it led to an investigation. Other players have landed on the list because they repeatedly been involved in matches where the bookmakers have seen illogical betting history.

The article continues ... • 21 players (15 men and 6 women) are on the warning list, which means a lower degree of suspicion.

One of them lost the Stockholm Open's first round against a much lower ranked opponents.

-From what I can see the odds history, it was nothing strange in the match, said John Nilsson, daytrader on Betfair and expert on betting in tennis.

The intense competition in tennis means that crashes are common and there are no sensations in themselves receiving warning bells ringing - they do it already before or during the match.

How?

-Before a match you notice it because the odds of the player to lose going up too much, while turnover is abnormally high, says John Nilsson.

And during a match?

-The money that people want to bet goes against the usual odds without any explanation.

Sometimes it is obvious cheating. As in the second round of a small ATP tournament where top players were 1-0 in sets against a low ranked player. Yet was spent huge sums on the low-ranked player who also won. Total turnover of the game seven million which is ten times more than normal than for a match of the character.

Betfair quickly realized that something was wrong, stopped playing the game, refused to pay out winnings and started with TIU an investigation was closed.

Many cheaters go free because the evidence does not agree, but John Nilsson believes that there is another explanation for why no more were killed.

Tennis and I mean players, ITF, ATP and WTA have in my opinion, the attitude that all the crap swept under the carpet. Doping, add games and other things do not reach the light of day.

-There is no doubt a deliberate strategy to hide violations. The aim is probably to the sport should look clean and nice. There is probably also a fear of losing TV contracts and sponsors.

How common is it to add games?

-Less common than a few years ago. Of the 4,000 matches played in a year is maybe 50 or so rigged in the sense that a player deliberately loses while his companions are investing money in that to happen.

As is commonly add games?

It's almost always in small ATP tournaments, like when the first round.

The two players suspended for life for deliberately losing the Austrian Daniel Köllerer, 27, and Serbs David Savic, 26. They also received 625,000 and 680,000 crowns in fines.

The Black List

Philipp Kohlschreiber

Potito Starace

Andreas Seppi

Fabio Fognini

Janko Tipsarevic

Michael Llodra

Nikolay Davydenko

Teymuraz Gabashvili

Victor Crivoi

Christophe Rochus

Oscar Hernandez

Yevgeny Korolev

Filippo Volandri

Wayne Odesnik

Victoria Azarenka

Agnieszka Radwanska

Francesca Schiavone

Sara Errani

Maria Kirilenko

Kateryna Bondarenko

.. And 21 on the warning list: Brian Dabul, Eduardo Scwhank, Jeremy Chardy, Simone Bolelli, Lukasz Kubot *, Carlos Berlocq, Igor Kunitsyn, Andrei Golubev *, Alex Bogomolov, Somdev Devvar-man *, Steve Darcis, Marin Cilic, Flavio Cipolla, Ivo Karlovic, Viktor Troicki, Flavia Pennetta, Roberta Vinci, Virginie Razzano, Romina Oprandi, Dominika Cibulkova, Eleni Daniilidou. * Participating in this year's Stockholm Open.

I'm surprised how many of those are established players. I thought this would have had more coverage considering it involves some players in the top 20 of both men and womens tennis

[T_S_A_R]

I'm surprised how many of those are established players. I thought this would have had more coverage considering it involves some players in the top 20 of both men and womens tennis

there is no definite proof except against the guys who got the life bans.

this list is similar to the cycling suspicions list that leaked during the summer. it's a database that the anti corruption unit use to target their resources.