Alex Salmond.

[SANTAN]

Represented on a national stage? Football.

And just call it a day, pack it in, start calling ourselves Northern England instead. I may or may not being totally serious here.

You don't get to decide that..

I can almost categorically state I don't think England would want that.

[1320Lichtie]

I can almost categorically state I don't think England would want that.

And that's why we're pointless. Seen as scroungers by the English and still don't have the confidence to go it alone ourselves.

I've been tongue in cheek quite a bit on here but I'm being genuine when I say that I think the No vote was a total embarrassment.

[mjw]

I love the term Separatists. So evocative.

It's funny when Rob uses it.

The guy who has a soft spot for a country with actual walls to actually separate people.

[SANTAN]

So the Westminster parties who waxed lyrical about the preserving our three-hundred-years of nationhood are fucking morons? If so, then it seems eminently sensible to take the opportunity to part company with them.

It's also notable that none of these parties aspires to regional status for the UK, so presumably they think regionalism is for fucking morons. They must class the Scots amongst that company.

Politicians don't often say what they mean. I'd say they appealed to a specific audience with nationalistic rhetoric. You realise the SNP are a nationalist party right? So if you're agreeing with me that nationalism is a bit silly then they're probably not the most sensible option.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if politicians considered the majority of the populace as a bit dim. That would obviously include Scottish people. I doubt they make a distinction like you do though.

[Mr Bairn]

Wow what a shite thread

[Antlion]

Politicians don't often say what they mean. I'd say they appealed to a specific audience with nationalistic rhetoric. You realise the SNP are a nationalist party right? So if you're agreeing with me that nationalism is a bit silly then they're probably not the most sensible option.Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if politicians considered the majority of the populace as a bit dim. That would obviously include Scottish people. I doubt they make a distinction like you do though.

I don't think nationalism is inherently silly, actually. It *can* be; it can be all sorts of things. Yet as long as we have nation states, we have nationalism. The U.K. is, for example, historically one of the most jingoistic, aggressively nationalistic countries that has ever existed in the history of the planet (and was wildly successful at it). Personally, I'll take civic Scottish nationalism over the avaricious nationalism of Cameron and his cohorts (and here I include Labour, the Liberal Democrats and UKIP) any day of the week.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Antlion

[SANTAN]

And that's why we're pointless. Seen as scroungers by the English and still don't have the confidence to go it alone ourselves.

I've been tongue in cheek quite a bit on here but I'm being genuine when I say that I think the No vote was a total embarrassment.

You're so melodramatic. I'm English btw..

"We're" not pointless, YOU feel pointless, YOU have percieved English people to look at you as scroungers. That's your weird melodramatic slant on things. It's not factual what so ever. It's your complex.

What on earth do you mean "confidence" to go it alone. How patronising of your fellow Scots. So it was the big brave Yes men against the scared No voters, rather than people who have made informed decisions?

Embarrassment to whom? Again, you may feel embarrassed, don't make the assumption everyone else is such a damp squib.

[SANTAN]

I don't think nationalism is inherently silly, actually. It *can* be; it can be all sorts of things. Yet as long as we have nation states, we have nationalism. The U.K. is, for example, historically one of the most jingoistic, aggressively nationalistic countries that has ever existed in the history of the planet (and was wildly successful at it). Personally, I'll take civic Scottish nationalism over the avaricious nationalism of Cameron and his cohorts (and here I include Labour, the Liberal Democrats and UKIP) any day of the week.

So why is Cameron's nationalism avaricious yet Salmonds is not? I don't see the distinction.

[Antlion]

So why is Cameron's nationalism avaricious yet Salmonds is not? I don't see the distinction.

Cameron's nationalism turns me off in its willingness to call the UK a "family of nations" one day and (once he has got his desired result) "one nation" the next. British nationalism, of which Cameron is a proponent, has long been an avaricious, greedy, expansionist ideology, of course (and I do not suggest that Scots were not art and part of it - many were and still are jingoistic British nationalists).

For whatever reason, British nationalism focuses on what it can suck out of its member states (or regions, as the union makes them). Just look at what centuries of British Union has resulted in, not just in Scotland, but in many regions of the UK outside the privileged few. It hasn't all been bad, but for my money having Scotland's resources controlled and managed outside Scotland by people Scotland did not elect has not been good for it. British nationalism also seems very heavily engaged in opposition to immigration and right-wing ideology (unlike Scottish nationalism - again, for whatever reason).

You say you're English. Do you think England (or even the UK) would be better off if it shut up Westminster and became absorbed into another state, sending all its revenue to, and being governed from, a sovereign parliament elected by, say, the French, and actively rejected at the ballot box by the English (or British)?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Antlion

[1320Lichtie]

You're so melodramatic. I'm English btw.."We're" not pointless, YOU feel pointless, YOU have percieved English people to look at you as scroungers. That's your weird melodramatic slant on things. It's not factual what so ever. It's your complex. What on earth do you mean "confidence" to go it alone. How patronising of your fellow Scots. So it was the big brave Yes men against the scared No voters, rather than people who have made informed decisions? Embarrassment to whom? Again, you may feel embarrassed, don't make the assumption everyone else is such a damp squib.

The way we're treated by Unionist politicians then. Not by English people themselves. If that makes you feel better...

And the no vote was an embarrassment, and it was mainly down to fear, which the No side blatantly used as their main tactic.

[AUFC90]

So why is Cameron's nationalism avaricious yet Salmonds is not? I don't see the distinction.

British nationalism feeds such groups as the Orange Order, NF, UKIP, Britain First etc. All right wing, Britnat, nationalists and all supported a no vote.

Scottish Nationalism has spawned groups such as WFI, RISE,Labour for independence and many more. Spot the difference ?

There are many forms of nationalism so to label all nationalism as bad is a special kind of stupid. There are billions of people around the world who love their country.

The real nasty nationalism is, in my experience, a lot more prevalent with the union jack waving side.

I want Scotland to be independent. I can't see how being governed from a capital city in another country can be better than being governed in Edinburgh by a government wholly elected by the Scottish people and wholly accountable to the Scottish people. If that makes me a nationalist then so be it.

Edited November 27, 2015 by AUFC90

[Antlion]

You don't get to decide that..I can almost categorically state I don't think England would want that.

It was certainly the dream at one point.

And now she is, and now in peace; therefore

Shake hands with Union, O thou mighty State!

Now thou art all Great Britain and no more;

No Scot, no English now, nor no debate;

No borders but the ocean and the shore;

No wall of Hadrian serves to separate

Our mutual love, nor our obedience

Being subjects all to one Imperial Prince

[RedRob72]

It's funny when Rob uses it.

The guy who has a soft spot for a country with actual walls to actually separate people.

Family and friends from Northern Ireland, is it that unusual to hold an affinity to where so many roots are held. I feel exactly the same about England. I'm not sure what your point is.

[1320Lichtie]

Family and friends from Northern Ireland, is it that unusual to hold an affinity to where so many roots are held.

If that's true, then fair enough I say.

[SANTAN]

The way we're treated by Unionist politicians then. Not by English people themselves. If that makes you feel better...

And the no vote was an embarrassment, and it was mainly down to fear, which the No side blatantly used as their main tactic.

How are you treated? I don't feel mistreated, stop trying to speak for everyone.

" It was mainly down to fear"

If anything is embarrassing here it's you and your narrow minded views. How audacious of you to claim to know 55% of the countries reasons for voting.

[SANTAN]

It was certainly the dream at one point.

And now she is, and now in peace; therefore

Shake hands with Union, O thou mighty State!

Now thou art all Great Britain and no more;

No Scot, no English now, nor no debate;

No borders but the ocean and the shore;

No wall of Hadrian serves to separate

Our mutual love, nor our obedience

Being subjects all to one Imperial Prince

That's a song mate.

[Antlion]

That's a song mate.

It's a verse panegyric, actually, buddy.

[Antlion]

How are you treated? I don't feel mistreated, stop trying to speak for everyone. " It was mainly down to fear" If anything is embarrassing here it's you and your narrow minded views. How audacious of you to claim to know 55% of the countries reasons for voting.

I believe it was Better Together organiser Blair McDougall who labelled his campaign "Project Fear", in the belief that the key component in securing a "No" vote was scaring the majority of the Scottish electorate into rejecting sovereignty.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Antlion

[1320Lichtie]

How are you treated? I don't feel mistreated, stop trying to speak for everyone. " It was mainly down to fear" If anything is embarrassing here it's you and your narrow minded views. How audacious of you to claim to know 55% of the countries reasons for voting.

I never said it was the reasoning of 55% of the population. But it was definitely the reason for at least 6% of that 55. Enough to win it for the No side.

You'd be deluded to think otherwise. It was self proclaimed Project Fear from the Better Together side. And it worked.

[SANTAN]

British nationalism feeds such groups as the Orange Order, NF, UKIP, Britain First etc. All right wing, Britnat, nationalists and all supported a no vote.

Scottish Nationalism has spawned groups such as WFI, RISE,Labour for independence and many more. Spot the difference ?

There are many forms of nationalism so to label all nationalism as bad is a special kind of stupid. There are billions of people around the world who love their country.

The real nasty nationalism is, in my experience, a lot more prevalent with the union jack waving side.

I want Scotland to be independent. I can't see how being governed from a capital city in another country can be better than being governed in Edinburgh by a government wholly elected by the Scottish people and wholly accountable to the Scottish people. If that makes me a nationalist then so be it.

I spot certain differences I don't know what difference you are alluding to? I never labeled all nationalism as bad. Generally, you shouldn't form your opinion purely from your own personal experiences. Could you please give me some clarification what you mean by the Union Jack waving side? Like who are you saying is worse than whom, 'Yes vs No', 'Britain First vs Scottish National Liberation Army'?

It does make you a nationalist. I believe your view to be a bit silly but you're entitled to it and I'm entitled to think as I do. Can you understand why somebody might believe the best for the country is to be part of the UK whether you agree or not?