League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Bazil85]

13 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

Nailed it.

Playing a whole raft of different teams twice a season is every bit as shite as four times a season if *my* team is down among the dead men (or stuck in meaningless mid-table mediocrity) 

The middle teams in the three most expensive league in the world would also probably challenge this point. 

[1320Lichtie]

Of course. The Rangers Celtic game in October 2017 was the lowest viewed game between those two clubs or Celtic and the old club in the sky era. 
Roughly 275k watched it. That’s 26k fewer than watched Villa Vs Forrest the same day and 145k less than watched Sheffield derby the next day. 
Now there may be a slight correlation with TV times but getting considerably less than Villa Vs Forrest is pretty tangible evidence that the interest in that fixture has dropped.
Link below. 
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj_uOv4p5bZAhUIIcAKHTxrBXwQqQIICSgBMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sundaypost.com%2Ffp%2Falan-brazil-rangers-and-celtic-viewing-figures-show-the-old-firm-tv-bubble-is-well-and-truly-burst%2F&usg=AOvVaw1p7zV0pgFt3hgayMa-sq-2

Maybe it’s dropped because Rangers are now pish? [emoji23]

That proves absolutely nothing.

[1320Lichtie]

The middle teams in the three most expensive league in the world would also probably challenge this point. 

Yes but we’re talking about Scottish football so you’ve just made another irrelevant point.

[Bazil85]

1 minute ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Maybe it’s dropped because Rangers are now pish?

That proves absolutely nothing.

 

Possibly yeah, that’s part of it. No competition in the league either. To say it proves absolutely nothing is possibly a bit narrow sighted though? You genuinely don’t think there’s any impact from number of repeat fixtures? Was it last season or season before they played each other three times in five weeks?

if you genuinely think it’s having no impact then that’s fine, that’s your view. There’s several news outlets saying it’s likely a factor and I imagine both clubs have considered it as a factor. 

[1320Lichtie]

Possibly yeah, that’s part of it. No competition in the league either. To say it proves absolutely nothing is possibly a bit narrow sighted though? You genuinely don’t think there’s any impact from number of repeat fixtures? Was it last season or season before they played each other three times in five weeks?

if you genuinely think it’s having no impact then that’s fine, that’s your view. There’s several news outlets saying it’s likely a factor and I imagine both clubs have considered it as a factor. 

 

No, if there was a title race and the teams were neck and neck and crammed full of quality players, like they used to be, then it wouldn’t matter how many times they played each other.

 

As it stands though there’s no title race and Rangers are vastly inferior, to a Celtic team who are also worse than they used to be.

[Bazil85]

3 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Yes but we’re talking about Scottish football so you’ve just made another irrelevant point.

 

I don’t understand how it’s irrelevant? Bigger leagues will always have middle teams with little to play for. I’m simply pointing out it works in other leagues including the biggest and most financially successful.

Even looking at smaller leagues. Scotland is currently 27th rated by coefficient in Europe. Of the 26 leagues above us over 20 have bigger leagues than 12 teams. There is an argument that these leagues are more successful based on coefficient. You can flatly reject any comment that’s against your views or you can have an actual debate. 

I for one fully see there are benefits to keeping a 12 team league but I feel there’s benefits in increasing the numbers. 

[1320Lichtie]

I don’t understand how it’s irrelevant? Bigger leagues will always have middle teams with little to play for. I’m simply pointing out it works in other leagues including the biggest and most financially successful.
Even looking at smaller leagues. Scotland is currently 27th rated by coefficient in Europe. Of the 26 leagues above us over 20 have bigger leagues than 12 teams. There is an argument that these leagues are more successful based on coefficient. You can flatly reject any comment that’s against your views or you can have an actual debate. 
I for one fully see there are benefits to keeping a 12 team league but I feel there’s benefits in increasing the numbers. 

What would you rather as a Hibs fan/neutral to watch on tv, Hibs playing Hearts/Hibs/Rangers/Celtic/Aberdeen 3/4 times a season or they games being swapped for games against St Mirren/ICT/Falkirk etc?

I don’t get it, as a fan do you really care who you’re playing, it’s a 10.5 month season, playing a side 4 times a year really doesn’t make much difference to me. I go to watch my club, and whether that’s us playing Stranraer 4 times or Stranraer twice and Peterhead twice it really makes no difference.

[Bazil85]

2 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

No, if there was a title race and the teams were neck and neck and crammed full of quality players, like they used to be, then it wouldn’t matter how many times they played each other.

 

As it stands though there’s no title race and Rangers are vastly inferior, to a Celtic team who are also worse than they used to be.

Yep, I just commented I can see benefits in keeping things the same but if you’re flatly rejecting that multiple fixtures doesn’t have an impact I’d draw your attention to the noticeable different figures between game in September then in October last year. No different in team quality in such a short time, still nothing to play for but fans turned off. 

Your argument is about interest in celtic and rangers fans. That game used to interest the neutral a lot more. Appears to me Villa Forrest generated more interest with neutrals last season and Sheffield derby. From memory none of those teams were in a title race/ relegation battle with each other at that time so why are fans choosing not to watch Rangers Celtic over mediocre English games?

[Bazil85]

1 minute ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

What would you rather as a Hibs fan/neutral to watch on tv, Hibs playing Hearts/Hibs/Rangers/Celtic/Aberdeen 3/4 times a season or they games being swapped for games against St Mirren/ICT/Falkirk etc?

I don’t get it, as a fan do you really care who you’re playing, it’s a 10.5 month season, playing a side 4 times a year really doesn’t make much difference to me. I go to watch my club, and whether that’s us playing Stranraer 4 times or Stranraer twice and Peterhead twice it really makes no difference.

 

Again you’re lumping in fans of clubs and neutrals. The issue is neutrals turning off for these games because of how repetitive they are. Clubs will always have fans that will watch regardless. Rangers and Celtic and Scottish football as a whole are losing neutrals to levels like English championship games. 

If they played each other twice a year and it was more of an occasion I firmly believe viewing figures would increase. 

[1320Lichtie]

Again you’re lumping in fans of clubs and neutrals. The issue is neutrals turning off for these games because of how repetitive they are. Clubs will always have fans that will watch regardless. Rangers and Celtic and Scottish football as a whole are losing neutrals to levels like English championship games. 

If they played each other twice a year and it was more of an occasion I firmly believe viewing figures would increase. 

 

Why care about neutrals? Seriously?

 

Actual fans of the clubs come first. I couldn’t give a shit about how many people watch Rangers v Celtic.

 

I also think that expanding the league would make it a lot less interesting for neutral fans too for reasons I’ve already explained. Yes other countries have bigger leagues but they’re also much bigger countries, it would be nonsensical for England to have leagues of 12 and 10.

 

The smaller leagues makes things much more interesting for myself personally. I don’t know who you support but I’m guessing St Mirren? Maybe a bit of self interest here with the talk of wanting to expand the top flight...?

[EdTheDuck]

Just now, Bazil85 said:

Of course. The Rangers Celtic game in October 2017 was the lowest viewed game between those two clubs or Celtic and the old club in the sky era. 

Roughly 275k watched it. That’s 26k fewer than watched Villa Vs Forrest the same day and 145k less than watched Sheffield derby the next day. 

Now there may be a slight correlation with TV times but getting considerably less than Villa Vs Forrest is pretty tangible evidence that the interest in that fixture has dropped.

Link below. 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj_uOv4p5bZAhUIIcAKHTxrBXwQqQIICSgBMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sundaypost.com%2Ffp%2Falan-brazil-rangers-and-celtic-viewing-figures-show-the-old-firm-tv-bubble-is-well-and-truly-burst%2F&usg=AOvVaw1p7zV0pgFt3hgayMa-sq-2

But in December the next one was watched by 642,000? Another game which you'd imagine would have turned off the fans even more by then, no? 

[Bazil85]

17 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

But in December the next one was watched by 642,000? Another game which you'd imagine would have turned off the fans even more by then, no? 

I'd expect an uplift in December with the festive period and more people making plans for it. I'd wager those numbers still paled in comparison to a lot of the English games. At one point the Old Firm derby was one of the biggest in the world. Now it's generating very little interest outside of Scotland. 

[Bazil85]

29 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Why care about neutrals? Seriously?

 

Actual fans of the clubs come first. I couldn’t give a shit about how many people watch Rangers v Celtic.

 

I also think that expanding the league would make it a lot less interesting for neutral fans too for reasons I’ve already explained. Yes other countries have bigger leagues but they’re also much bigger countries, it would be nonsensical for England to have leagues of 12 and 10.

 

The smaller leagues makes things much more interesting for myself personally. I don’t know who you support but I’m guessing St Mirren? Maybe a bit of self interest here with the talk of wanting to expand the top flight...?

Neutral fans generate income. Celtic and soon to be Rangers will continue to be whipping boys in Europe. SP and SPFL will continue to struggle to get sponsors, less money will continue to come into our game. The Rangers and Celtic cash cow is getting milked dry with so many fixtures. Up to seven a season? Zzzzzzz

If you really thought fans first then why not extend the league? Can you imagine a top flight with the Renfrewshire derby, Highland derby, Dundee Derby, Falkirk/ Dunfermline derby, Ayrshir derby. I think fans of these clubs would like that a lot more.

I assure you out of the 26 leagues above us in Europe, a number of them have much less fans going to football games yet bigger leagues. The football interest in this country could merit and grow from bigger leagues. 

As for self-interest, we seem to be doing okay ourselves getting back to the top flight but as above i would love having more derby matches and that wee bit more excitement and magic in the fixtures because they're not rolling up every couple of months.  

[EdTheDuck]

Just now, Bazil85 said:

I'd expect an uplift in December with the festive period and more people making plans for it. I'd wager those numbers still paled in comparison to a lot of the English games. At one point the Old Firm derby was one of the biggest in the world. Now it's generating very little interest outside of Scotland. 

Bullshit. The OF derby was never one of the biggest in the world, you've been reading the Daily Record too much my friend.

[1320Lichtie]

Neutral fans generate income. Celtic and soon to be Rangers will continue to be whipping boys in Europe. SP and SPFL will continue to struggle to get sponsors, less money will continue to come into our game. The Rangers and Celtic cash cow is getting milked dry with so many fixtures. Up to seven a season? Zzzzzzz If you really thought fans first then why not extend the league? Can you imagine a top flight with the Renfrewshire derby, Highland derby, Dundee Derby, Falkirk/ Dunfermline derby, Ayrshir derby. I think fans of these clubs would like that a lot more.

I assure you out of the 26 leagues above us in Europe, a number of them have much less fans going to football games yet bigger leagues. The football interest in this country could merit and grow from bigger leagues. 

As for self-interest, we seem to be doing okay ourselves getting back to the top flight but as above i would love having more derby matches and that wee bit more excitement and magic in the fixtures because they're not rolling up every couple of months.  

 

 

So Scotland will attract more neutral fans and therefore more tv money and sponsors by only having two Celtic and Rangers games a season and more St Mirren v Morton and ICT v Ross County games on TV?

 

Seriously

 

Eta: no being funny but are the tv deals not improving every single time as it stands?

[1320Lichtie]

Bullshit. The OF derby was never one of the biggest in the world, you've been reading the Daily Record too much my friend.

It’s amazing people think that. In the same way no c**t in Scotland watches Galatasaray v Fenerbahce no c**t else will be watching the OF.

How many neutral fans can we attract anyway like I don’t get his point. Outside of the EPL how many people in Scotland will be fans and regular viewers of the German/French/Italian leagues, some of the biggest leagues in Europe, never mind your Turkish/Swedish/Portuguese leagues?

The argument is a total nonsense

[Bazil85]

Just now, 1320Lichtie said:

 

So Scotland will attract more neutral fans and therefore more tv money and sponsors by only having two Celtic and Rangers games a season and more St Mirren v Morton and ICT v Ross County games on TV?

 

Seriously

You clearly aren't following what I'm saying. I'll try simplify it further. First of all, it's two separate issues. 

1. 

The Rangers and Celtic games are losing their appeal. They aren't close to the draw they once were. My opinion is something has to be done to safeguard that fixture. Having it up to seven times a season just isn't doing it. We are about to lose a major sponsor in Scotland, TV deal is one of the worst in Europe and money in real terms is reducing in Scottish football every single year. For that reason I think something needs to be done to shake things up. Financially speaking we are screwed but for longer term gains Scotland can do things to improve the game and generate more excitement and a less bleak future. 

Leads on to 2. 

Bigger leagues would protect this fixture. It could also reignite excitement in fans of the game that have turned away by having more variety and more interest generating games. Try to understand when I talk about the derbies I'm talking about at fan level, when I'm talking about less Rangers Celtic fixtures I'm talking about the excitement and neutral interest these games used to generate. 

If things stay as is, more fans will likely lose interest and our game on a wider scale (such as OF games) will continue to shrink. 

[EdTheDuck]

Just now, Bazil85 said:

Neutral fans generate income. Celtic and soon to be Rangers will continue to be whipping boys in Europe. SP and SPFL will continue to struggle to get sponsors, less money will continue to come into our game. The Rangers and Celtic cash cow is getting milked dry with so many fixtures. Up to seven a season? Zzzzzzz

If you really thought fans first then why not extend the league? Can you imagine a top flight with the Renfrewshire derby, Highland derby, Dundee Derby, Falkirk/ Dunfermline derby, Ayrshir derby. I think fans of these clubs would like that a lot more.

I assure you out of the 26 leagues above us in Europe, a number of them have much less fans going to football games yet bigger leagues. The football interest in this country could merit and grow from bigger leagues. 

As for self-interest, we seem to be doing okay ourselves getting back to the top flight but as above i would love having more derby matches and that wee bit more excitement and magic in the fixtures because they're not rolling up every couple of months.  

There are far more leagues in Europe with 10, 12, 14 teams playing X3 and X4 and with splits of one kind or another than there are leagues playing X2, this is because small countries recognise that they have a limited number of large towns/cities and therefore a limited number of teams to generate fan/TV interest. 8 of the 13 countries above us in the rankings who play X2 have populations of 35 - 150 million (the other 5 are all double or treble the population of Scotland) - are you seriously suggesting a backwater like Scotland with 5 million could mimic these countries and get the same result? My arse.

 

[Bazil85]

21 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

Bullshit. The OF derby was never one of the biggest in the world, you've been reading the Daily Record too much my friend.

It was certainly a lot lot lot bigger than it is now

[Bazil85]

10 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

It’s amazing people think that. In the same way no c**t in Scotland watches Galatasaray v Fenerbahce no c**t else will be watching the OF.

How many neutral fans can we attract anyway like I don’t get his point. Outside of the EPL how many people in Scotland will be fans and regular viewers of the German/French/Italian leagues, some of the biggest leagues in Europe, never mind your Turkish/Swedish/Portuguese leagues?

The argument is a total nonsense

 

Are you genuinely suggesting there has never been an interest in Old Firm games outside of Scotland?