Are white settlers to blame for the failure of "indyref"?

[Fide]

 

 

 

 

 

Still spouting the same tired old lies. It's amazing how desperate the SNP lackeys are to toe the party line. They get hysterical when anyone challenges its policy to surrender an independent Scotland's sovereignty the EU's deeper political union. 

. 

 

That, to a letter, is what I just accused you of.   Well done for replying in the EXACT same fashion.

[Bishop Briggs]

 

 

 

 

That, to a letter, is what I just accused you of.   Well done for replying in the EXACT same fashion.

 

 

Do you think I care what a thick numpty like you says? Awa' and bile yer heid!

[Fide]

Do you think I care what a thick numpty like you says? Awa' and bile yer heid!

 

[Bishop Briggs]

Fide  

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I do resent a lot the over 55s and over 65s in particular for their selfishness and cowardice in terms of voting no.

A lot of them did it out of sheer spite so it's hard to respect that. They got what they wanted, but it was a pyrrhic victory and next time it will be different.

This blaming one group is nonsense - Yes failed to convince enough people to vote for them - end of.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I don't think it was spite or selfishness, not by itself anyway. No doubt there were myriad factors that influenced people's votes but experience and identity played a big role, I reckon.

The fixation on the rUK born Scot's vote that started this thread is unhelpful and yeah the OP's complaint as to the term 'white settler' is entirely valid. Still, it's an illustrative statistic:

Scots born/Scot resident: 53/47 yes

rUK born/Scot resident: 80/20 No

other EU born/Scot resident: 65/35 No.

We are told that economic factors were decisive in explaining the indy ref result, and maybe it was, in so much as it generated enough extra No votes in the biggest group to (Scots born/Scots resident) to stop Yes. Still, were economic factors the only issue, then those three groups should be broadly the same distribution of votes. They clearly aren't.

The other interesting break down is by age. Yes is ahead up to the 50 year old bracket and becomes more No friendly thereafter. The first interesting point is that the no vote percentage keeps increasing by age bracket, even after you basically max out the level of financial risk you can be exposed to (house ownership, pension etc), even more interesting is that Yes was ahead amongst the majority of the working age population, and that it was ahead even after people start owning homes (the median for home ownership is about 35), so clearly financial worries are not the sole dominant factor here either. At the margins finance does dominate: Lower income percentiles with nothing to lose were overwhelmingly Yes, those with high incomes and/or wealth and had more to potentially lose were more risk averse, yet in the middle it seems like there were other competing factors.

My theory is that you cannot understand the mood of the nation without examining it through the historical prism of two dates: 1945 and 1979. Proximity to that 'greates generation', the formation of the welfare state, total employment and real, organised Labour will generate a different set of experiences to those who came of age around 79 and later. The former will see a project to build a better Britain, something they see Scotland as an important and constructive part of. It's no surprise that they will have a far mroe positive outlook on Britain, and therefore a stronger association with Britain. The latter have the experience of the industrial clearances, the destruction of organised Labour, the feeling that Westminster either can't or won't provide the governance that most Scots would like to see. I don't think it's nationality in the narrow terms of 'my country, right or wrong' but in this case the division between British and scottish identiity is built on the formative experience of each group. One still sees the UK broadly as a force for good, the other sees Scotland as an opportunity to try something different. In terms of rUK born Scots, it's n surprise they'd have a strong attachment to the UK as a whole.

At the end of the day, most folk voted as thier conscience dicatated. Yes didn't do well enough in the places it was competittive to overcome No, but there is reason to suspect that will change over time. The longer the SNP and othe rpro Indy gorups are seen as a positive influence in Scotland, and the longer Westminster seems alienated from the lives of ordinary Scots the stronger the concept of Indy will get. It's a process that needs lived and can't be short circuited by alienating gorups of voters.

That's a pretty good assessment.

[welshbairn]

This blaming one group is nonsense - Yes failed to convince enough people to vote for them - end of.

 

The bitterness displayed by some Indy enthusiasts to those who voted no is totally self defeating. They should be grooming them.

[StreetwiseHercules]

This blaming one group is nonsense - Yes failed to convince enough people to vote for them - end of.

I'm just being honest about what I think.

[StreetwiseHercules]

The bitterness displayed by some Indy enthusiasts to those who voted no is totally self defeating. They should be grooming them.

No point with the over 65s.

[welshbairn]

No point with the over 65s.

 

Get to know them better, help them with a bit of shopping. And filling in postal votes.

[Mortar Bored]

I don't think it was spite or selfishness, not by itself anyway. No doubt there were myriad factors that influenced people's votes but experience and identity played a big role, I reckon.

The fixation on the rUK born Scot's vote that started this thread is unhelpful and yeah the OP's complaint as to the term 'white settler' is entirely valid. Still, it's an illustrative statistic:

Scots born/Scot resident: 53/47 yes

rUK born/Scot resident: 80/20 No

other EU born/Scot resident: 65/35 No.

We are told that economic factors were decisive in explaining the indy ref result, and maybe it was, in so much as it generated enough extra No votes in the biggest group to (Scots born/Scots resident) to stop Yes. Still, were economic factors the only issue, then those three groups should be broadly the same distribution of votes. They clearly aren't.

The other interesting break down is by age. Yes is ahead up to the 50 year old bracket and becomes more No friendly thereafter. The first interesting point is that the no vote percentage keeps increasing by age bracket, even after you basically max out the level of financial risk you can be exposed to (house ownership, pension etc), even more interesting is that Yes was ahead amongst the majority of the working age population, and that it was ahead even after people start owning homes (the median for home ownership is about 35), so clearly financial worries are not the sole dominant factor here either. At the margins finance does dominate: Lower income percentiles with nothing to lose were overwhelmingly Yes, those with high incomes and/or wealth and had more to potentially lose were more risk averse, yet in the middle it seems like there were other competing factors.

My theory is that you cannot understand the mood of the nation without examining it through the historical prism of two dates: 1945 and 1979. Proximity to that 'greates generation', the formation of the welfare state, total employment and real, organised Labour will generate a different set of experiences to those who came of age around 79 and later. The former will see a project to build a better Britain, something they see Scotland as an important and constructive part of. It's no surprise that they will have a far mroe positive outlook on Britain, and therefore a stronger association with Britain. The latter have the experience of the industrial clearances, the destruction of organised Labour, the feeling that Westminster either can't or won't provide the governance that most Scots would like to see. I don't think it's nationality in the narrow terms of 'my country, right or wrong' but in this case the division between British and scottish identiity is built on the formative experience of each group. One still sees the UK broadly as a force for good, the other sees Scotland as an opportunity to try something different. In terms of rUK born Scots, it's n surprise they'd have a strong attachment to the UK as a whole.

At the end of the day, most folk voted as thier conscience dicatated. Yes didn't do well enough in the places it was competittive to overcome No, but there is reason to suspect that will change over time. The longer the SNP and othe rpro Indy gorups are seen as a positive influence in Scotland, and the longer Westminster seems alienated from the lives of ordinary Scots the stronger the concept of Indy will get. It's a process that needs lived and can't be short circuited by alienating gorups of voters.

This is possibly the most concise post and also the most honest post I've seen on P&B, despite being a long post, you address the real stats & issues. So it's obviously well researched.

Kudos to you, I've read many previous posts of yours and will look out for your contributions more in future. Thanks

[Dunning1874]

They should be grooming them.

 

BEAST

[mjw]

They should be grooming them.

No point with the over 65s.

The f**k is going on here then?

[Fide]

This blaming one group is nonsense - Yes failed to convince enough people to vote for them - end of.

 

I'm afraid it's not "end of" just because you say it is.

 

Better Together's campaign, particularly towards the end and pointedly after the 51% Yes Yougov poll was a litany of lies and fear. 

[RedRob72]

I'm afraid it's not "end of" just because you say it is.

Better Together's campaign, particularly towards the end and pointedly after the 51% Yes Yougov poll was a litany of lies and fear.

As opposed to wild guesswork, conjecture and sketchy elaboration eh?

[Fide]

As opposed to wild guesswork, conjecture and sketchy elaboration eh?

 

Colour me surprised at your thinking this Robert.  You always have been a man of limited vision and intellect.

 

[StreetwiseHercules]

As opposed to wild guesswork, conjecture and sketchy elaboration eh?

Do YOU have a crystal ball?

[HaikuHibee]

As opposed to wild guesswork, conjecture and sketchy elaboration eh?

 

You have blind faith mate, that old Blighty shall provide. You're like a pagan.

[Antlion]

You have blind faith mate, that old Blighty shall provide. You're like a pagan.

Ah, but Rob claims independence supporters have been "brainwashed" (as he salutes his Union Jack, calls upon God to save and protect the Dear Leader and her royal heirs, and demands that Scotland never enjoy the statehood most nations take for granted).

[RedRob72]

Colour me surprised at your thinking this Robert. You always have been a man of limited vision and intellect.

And your eager, yielding acceptance of embellished prediction, offered you a clearer vision and displayed a higher personal intellect did it!?

Always good for a laugh Fidey, please don't stop.