"Scotland Has Too Many Clubs" - Ann Budge

[D.A.F.C]

12 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Feel free to explain how terracing precludes watching a game in comfort.

After that, elaborate on your criteria for the minimum standard of catering required.

Not like Capppielow.

[WaffenThinMint]

52 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Small clubs shouldn't have to defend themselves on the 'what to do they contribute' point anyway, as if totalling-up the number of young players they have brought through is the only measure to justify their existence. You don't look at the Scottish game then conclude that its only purpose is to underpin a national team plus a few clubs that represent us in Europe?

Agreed. The purpose of the so-called "diddy clubs" is to provide a football club for locals wanting to play (to whatever level or aspiration) and/or watch the game, and so long as there is a local wish for this there will be as many clubs as the locality needs to cater to the demand. Moreover, changes to a local economy or astute management on and off the field can easily mean some "no hope" club from 10 years ago can find themselves in the top tier - and our league structure must be flexible enough to reflect such sea changes.

When I first saw the headlines, I thought is this Budgie about to raise the old chestnut of the Sweet 16 again? - ie. two national leagues of sixteen, then below it regionalisation - that a previous Hearts regime tried floating in the 50s. The argument then as now is Scotland is kidding itself trying to run almost half the number of national senior leagues clubs our far larger neighbours do with a far more spartan population base to work from. Fair enough, but the justifiable fear amongst those most at risk of finding themselves in the new regional leagues is that they could find themselves cast adrift over time.

To a minor extent, that's been alleviated by the SPFL play-offs demonstrating good faith by those in charge to allow clubs to ascend from an even lower tier to the top on merit, and it's only a matter of time before the absurdity of one of Scotland's largest towns - East Kilbride - having no national league representative is now resolved by natural progression on said merit. There is less risk now of the top clubs setting up a closed shop than ever before, helped in part by certain events in 2012.

Nevertheless, in some respects, those clubs perennially in the third and fourth tiers need to bite the bullet & realise so long as they're proffering games with a lesser grade of player on offer they'll be more attractive to potential fans if it is as part of a league where travel to away games means a more reasonable round trip to areas they feel some sort of affinity or rivalry with -  that means local towns/cities, where they have workmates, etc. from. And that means regionalisation below Tier 2.

It's not so much an appeal to parochialism as to that of common sense - the same one which makes European competitions between clubs fine as a through season novelty, but the idea of a standing European league of the same clubs season in season out a non-starter for the vast majority of fans. Unfortunately due to the Scottish tendency of being slow to adapt, I fear it's going to take the usual series of crises before anything is done proactively in that respect.

[itzdrk]

Feel free to explain how terracing precludes watching a game in comfort.

After that, elaborate on your criteria for the minimum standard of catering required.

Its always fat guys who hate terracing.

[itzdrk]

Its all a lot of waffle regardless. 10 (atleast) teams would have to vote themselves out of the SPFL to gain 75% would they not?

And even at that point if somehow it happened. The SPFL would have no say in how the league was structured. Due to the fact the clubs remaining would be a majority of former SFL members they could quite easily start an SNL and run it.

[Ira Gaines]

8 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

Not like Capppielow.

#Edgy

[NewBlue]

10 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

The argument then as now is Scotland is kidding itself trying to run almost half the number of national senior leagues clubs our far larger neighbours do with a far more spartan population base to work from.

I see this said a lot but I don't think it is a fair comparison. The top non league sides in England are a lot more professional than our non league set up in Scotland and is also well attended - the national Leagues average attendance for last season was over 5000. So it isn't exactly fair to make a direct comparison as there are arguably a lot more 'professional' sides in England outside the top 4 leagues.

[cowdenbeath]

17 hours ago, Siley Myrus said:

Am sure a newspaper ran this last year, but, is there an actual point to East Fife, Albion Rovers, Cowdenbeath, Elgin and others?   Do they really contribute anything to the Scottish game?  Its not as if they produce future top league stars, and its all well saying they have xxxxx die hard fans and a tradition, but so did Woolies, JohnLewis and Prestos?

Yes I would say there is over the last few years Cowden, East Fife and Rovers have been promoted and indeed won championships along the way in doing so. As recently as 2 seasons ago we were a Championship side and played there for 3 seasons as a part time side in a full time league.

We discovered Greg Stewart playing under 21 juvenile football and gave him a chance in the senior ranks and now he is been courted by English Championship sides after being Dundee's best player in the last 2 seasons. We also helped kick start Kane Hemmings career after he got discarded by Rangers and he went on to be one of the top scorers in the Premiership last season.

Edited August 12, 2016 by cowdenbeath

[stuartcraig]

3 hours ago, cowdenbeath said:

Yes I would say there is over the last few years Cowden, East Fife and Rovers have been promoted and indeed won championships along the way in doing so. As recently as 2 seasons ago we were a Championship side and played there for 3 seasons as a part time side in a full time league.

We discovered Greg Stewart playing under 21 juvenile football and gave him a chance in the senior ranks and now he is been courted by English Championship sides after being Dundee's best player in the last 2 seasons. We also helped kick start Kane Hemmings career after he got discarded by Rangers and he went on to be one of the top scorers in the Premiership last season.

Which kind of illustrates the lazy aspect of the trolling the OP was attempting.  Basically, lets go at a few obvious candidates (like the Rovers who were everyone's idea of a joke team until recently but who, it pains me to say, are now a tidy and improving outfit) without actually checking whether their track record supports the assertion.

The fact is any team playing in the 2nd and 3rd divisions don't need to justify their existence if they're balancing the books, paying their players wages, providing an appropriate venue for their home league games and turning up for matches.  Using example teams which have been doing considerably better than that just makes the OP look ignorant (which, in fairness, may have been an intentional part of the trolling schtick).

Edited August 12, 2016 by stuartcraig

[1320Lichtie]

Yes I would say there is over the last few years Cowden, East Fife and Rovers have been promoted and indeed won championships along the way in doing so. As recently as 2 seasons ago we were a Championship side and played there for 3 seasons as a part time side in a full time league.

We discovered Greg Stewart playing under 21 juvenile football and gave him a chance in the senior ranks and now he is been courted by English Championship sides after being Dundee's best player in the last 2 seasons. We also helped kick start Kane Hemmings career after he got discarded by Rangers and he went on to be one of the top scorers in the Premiership last season.

Mate, it's not even worthy of a reply.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, Wilkinson1998 said:

 

At the highest level of regionalisation Alloa would still play Stranraer. Nice try though

Have already responded to this point. The obvious regionalisation would be a three-way east-west-north format along the lines of the east and west junior superleagues and the Highland league, so that is not the case. Most of Alloa's opponents would be in Fife and the Lothians and within an hour's drive if that approach were to be adopted, as is the case for Bo'ness United at the moment, which was the example I used.

 

 

[Hampden Diehard]

Budge would seem to be ignorant of how much the power and cash in Scotland has veered towards the "big" clubs recently.  It's been stated in this thread already how the SPFL money and voting has been largely taken away from those outwith the top two divisions, but it's also the case that the money to promote youth football has been slashed to all but the full time sides.  Clubs like mine who cannot provide a path into full time football are being sidelined, despite actually doing what the SFA want - producing kids that can play at the top level.  Smaller clubs who had very successful youth set ups supported by the SFA and who worked very hard at it (e.g. Arbroath and Cowden) are struggling to keep it going.  Have Arbroath abandoned it???

Club set ups in recent years have largely replaced the bastions of under age football (the schools, Eastercraigs, Drumchapel Amateurs and even the BB etc) in this area.  What's to fill the gap to get kids away from their PC toys and kicking a ball about when the community clubs can't afford to run a decent youth programme?

 

[cowdenbeath]

54 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Budge would seem to be ignorant of how much the power and cash in Scotland has veered towards the "big" clubs recently.  It's been stated in this thread already how the SPFL money and voting has been largely taken away from those outwith the top two divisions, but it's also the case that the money to promote youth football has been slashed to all but the full time sides.  Clubs like mine who cannot provide a path into full time football are being sidelined, despite actually doing what the SFA want - producing kids that can play at the top level.  Smaller clubs who had very successful youth set ups supported by the SFA and who worked very hard at it (e.g. Arbroath and Cowden) are struggling to keep it going.  Have Arbroath abandoned it???

Club set ups in recent years have largely replaced the bastions of under age football (the schools, Eastercraigs, Drumchapel Amateurs and even the BB etc) in this area.  What's to fill the gap to get kids away from their PC toys and kicking a ball about when the community clubs can't afford to run a decent youth programme?

 

Arbroath have abandoned their under 20 side in recent times don't know if they still have younger age groups still on the go. For our part we joined the Fife Elite Football Academy along with the other 3 Fife Clubs. We still have our 20s side.

[1320Lichtie]

Think with the new set up imposed by the SFA the youth team was no longer worth it, scrapped in 2014 I think. The 2020 thing Wotte brought in? Our under 20s seemed like a bit of a waste of time anyway, Swankie and Webster the only 2 notable players to have come out of that in the last 15 year.

[DA Baracus]

On 8/7/2016 at 22:30, D.A.F.C said:

I think the setup is fine other than in the top two leagues your stadium should be at least fit to watch football in some comfort.

Full time should be optional but I would have all seated stadiums and facilities for disabled people and decent toilets and catering.

Below the championship I would localise it and have open entry for any team. Junior or senior.

Horrible, dreadful pish (except the part about facilities for disabled people and decent toilets and catering).

All seater stadia have been a proved failure. Clubs have knackered themselves with debt converting their stadiums and others have been denied their rightful place in a league due to not being able to afford the changes. Who actually wants all seater stadiums? Not many people, and those that do would be more than catered for by the seating in any stadium with terracing anyway.

Others have covered the regionalisation nonsense here.

[Only one David Marsh]

I don't get the fascination with budge she's just a female version of Doncaster and regan, all of whom know nothing about running professional football and have no background in football either. 

I know we all joke about clubs merging like the 4 Angus club (Monbroathfarchin) but in all seriousness these clubs serve a purpose in their own community's. They give kids and fans something to aspire to plus It's the diddy teams that pick up the players that aren't deemed good enough for the premier league and give them a platform to rebuild their career again. 

The clowns at the top haven't got a clue how to run our game and it saddens me everything is being done to benefit the two bigot brothers. 

[LongTimeLurker]

How does a regional format stop any of those things from happening?

[1320Lichtie]

How does a regional format stop any of those things from happening?

Because.... None of us are fucking interested.

If I was I'd go and watch the juniors.

[Dunning1874]

Surely the point of a regional setup is that you move from national to regional at the point where clubs can't sustain the infrastructure/budget required to play at a national level, moving to smaller regions on the same basis the further down you go through the pyramid?

It's self evident that clubs can sustain themselves playing at a national level in tiers three & four, therefore there's clearly no need to introduce regionalisation at that level.

[1320Lichtie]

Surely the point of a regional setup is that you move from national to regional at the point where clubs can't sustain the infrastructure/budget required to play at a national level, moving to smaller regions on the same basis the further down you go through the pyramid?

It's self evident that clubs can sustain themselves playing at a national level in tiers three & four, therefore there's clearly no need to introduce regionalisation at that level.

It's part of the appeal for me and always has been. Our players come from all over the country too. It would hardly reduce travelling for them if anything it could increase it. Ricky Little goes to Perth twice a week from Ayrshire and Arbroath once every 2 weeks. Same with a lot of players, central belt based, it would probably restrict our market by quite a fair bit and give an advantage to teams that were playing their 'regional' football in the central belt.

We're comfortable at a national level, same with every other club. Why should we be forced into a regional league containing local junior clubs and the like? Lot of shite.

[NewBlue]

45 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

It's part of the appeal for me and always has been. Our players come from all over the country too. It would hardly reduce travelling for them if anything it could increase it.

Same for us. Some of out players travel further for our home games than the away team.