O'Kelly Isley III Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 The adverse economic consequences of (any form of) Brexit will be damaging to all business - big, medium-sized and small. If plebiscites are regarded as the ultimate expression of democracy, as seems to be the implication here, then going back to the public when we now have a greater understanding of the consequences of our (previously ill-informed) actions is obviously not anti-democratic, no matter how the Brexiteers wish to dress it up. We live in a parliamentary democracy however, and if our representatives had the courage of their convictions they would revoke article 50 themselves, as it’s clearly an act of utter folly and counter to the national interest, but as the majority of them seem to be terrified of the backlash from the extremists and xenophobes, they’ll most likely hand it back to the public, eventually.There's an excellent article by Iain McWhirter on all of this in today's Herald. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Apparently the weighting and results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Apparently the weighting and results. Trouble is that Corbyn's Brexit strategy is not the Labour party strategy decided at conference. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Trouble is that Corbyn's Brexit strategy is not the Labour party strategy decided at conference. Mainly because he doesn't have a Brexit strategy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: 2 hours ago, dirty dingus said: There was some big shot Labour union guy on the today show this morning basically saying Corbyn was out of step with members and was pushing for an emergency conference. There is a bit of ' how dare Britain speak out' to this. The proles will be shafted when Brexit is ditched and Mr 'left wing' Corbyn is replaced by a Blairite. Anyone who actually believes we are living in a free democracy needs their head examined. Elitists and big business will prevail. The big problem with Brexit is this - "There is no plan". Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can win an election, go to Brussels and say "Hey, it's us." and for some reason the EU will offer him something better. Theresa May, for all her faults, voted Remain but feels obliged to negotiate the people's will. Jeremy Corbyn has always been opposed to the EU. Why would they be friendlier to him? As soon as anyone criticises Jeremy Corbyn on anything - the conspiracy theorists come racing to his side. Nobody is forcing him to say the stupid things that he says. How is it a free democracy to see that Brexit will be a disaster but have no means to elect a government that will stop it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, Fullerene said: How is it a free democracy to see that Brexit will be a disaster but have no means to elect a government that will stop it? You can also say "how can it be impossible to leave the EU" I don't think leaving will be a disaster. It's in the interest of people who want to remain to say it will be though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Flicking round the TV channels this morning I chanced briefly on Jeremy Vine on Channel 5 conducting some kind of a phone in. A woman came on, shouting loudly that Britain is closed now -" there's just no room for any more immigrants" She went on to say that young people are forced to stay with their parents because there is no available housing for them - "and why is this? Because the local authorities simply hand over any available housing to the immigrants. They also get free health care and benefits. It's got to stop - Britain is closed now and we all know what we voted for when we voted to Leave." Sadly, these sentiments are frequently expressed around here in the Burnley area. I'm currently living in a fairly respectable district, but I'm aware that many of my neighbours around here would say the same thing regards immigrants and housing, although at the same time will point out that it's not something they like to talk about for fear of being labelled racist! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, Detournement said: You can also say "how can it be impossible to leave the EU" I don't think leaving will be a disaster. It's in the interest of people who want to remain to say it will be though. It is not impossible to leave the EU. However it is impossible to leave the EU and cease to be a member but continue to reap all the benefits of being a member. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 46 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Flicking round the TV channels this morning I chanced briefly on Jeremy Vine on Channel 5 conducting some kind of a phone in. A woman came on, shouting loudly that Britain is closed now -" there's just no room for any more immigrants" She went on to say that young people are forced to stay with their parents because there is no available housing for them - "and why is this? Because the local authorities simply hand over any available housing to the immigrants. They also get free health care and benefits. It's got to stop - Britain is closed now and we all know what we voted for when we voted to Leave." Sadly, these sentiments are frequently expressed around here in the Burnley area. I'm currently living in a fairly respectable district, but I'm aware that many of my neighbours around here would say the same thing regards immigrants and housing, although at the same time will point out that it's not something they like to talk about for fear of being labelled racist! That there is a housing shortage is a reality. It's not the fault of immigrants but they clearly exacerbate it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: Why do they take up social housing at a disproportionate rate to UK natives? The rates are about the same in social housing but why compare to the UK born population? And extra demand distorts privately owned, private rent and social. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Brian Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 53 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Flicking round the TV channels this morning I chanced briefly on Jeremy Vine on Channel 5 conducting some kind of a phone in. A woman came on, shouting loudly that Britain is closed now -" there's just no room for any more immigrants" She went on to say that young people are forced to stay with their parents because there is no available housing for them - "and why is this? Because the local authorities simply hand over any available housing to the immigrants. They also get free health care and benefits. It's got to stop - Britain is closed now and we all know what we voted for when we voted to Leave." Sadly, these sentiments are frequently expressed around here in the Burnley area. I'm currently living in a fairly respectable district, but I'm aware that many of my neighbours around here would say the same thing regards immigrants and housing, although at the same time will point out that it's not something they like to talk about for fear of being labelled racist! In her world, I bet you all these houses are equipped with 50 inch T.V.s as well Going to be quite amusing to see who she blames if/when we do leave the EU, and all these problems still exist. Poor Brittney and Chad will still be living with their parents because they are too thick or lazy to get a job, but no Poles to blame for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, MixuFixit said: Well by saying immigrants exacerbate the housing shortage this sort of implies they're adding to the woes of some other group of people. Lazy scroungers coming over here and building our houses imo. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: Well by saying immigrants exacerbate the housing shortage this sort of implies they're adding to the woes of some other group of people. If there is an already deficient amount of resources then expanding the number of people competing for these resources is going to result in greater woe. The question is do you think that a non citizen outside the UK who may decide to migrate here during 2019 should have the same access to services as an already resident UK citizen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Fullerene said: The big problem with Brexit is this - "There is no plan". Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can win an election, go to Brussels and say "Hey, it's us." and for some reason the EU will offer him something better. Theresa May, for all her faults, voted Remain but feels obliged to negotiate the people's will. Jeremy Corbyn has always been opposed to the EU. Why would they be friendlier to him? As soon as anyone criticises Jeremy Corbyn on anything - the conspiracy theorists come racing to his side. Nobody is forcing him to say the stupid things that he says. How is it a free democracy to see that Brexit will be a disaster but have no means to elect a government that will stop it? Corbyn doesn't appear to have a plan and is at odds with many Labour voters over Brexit, however the Tories are in an even worse state as they have lots of positions and views on Brexit and they all differ hugely from each other. They have also shown over the past few months that they're every bit as bad, if not worse than Labour, with the internal fighting and backstabbing, as such the SNP are the only party who appear to have a direction and unity within the party on the brexit debate. As we've all said a million times, it's a complete and utter shambles........... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 The SNP also have the easiest time of the parties over Brexit. The only significant issue for them is when they should trigger the next referendum. ETA: I’m talking about the relevant parties AKA not the Lib Dems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 34 minutes ago, NotThePars said: The SNP also have the easiest time of the parties over Brexit. The only significant issue for them is when they should trigger the next referendum. ETA: I’m talking about the relevant parties AKA not the Lib Dems. Corbyn could be raising the Lib Dems from the grave, people who see remaining as a priority in England will have nowhere else to go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: #1 pretty sure they already don't have that access without jumping through a number of hoops. #2 that resource competition is the evident perception but is it the truth? I can believe there are local spots where it is true, but if immigration as a whole benefits the economy as a whole that probably means more houses being built per capita as a whole than if immigrants weren't immigrating? Figures show that the proportion of non UK born and UK born residents in social housing is equal so they obviously have equal access. "Benefits the economy as a whole" is meaningless. Net migration over the past 10 years is far higher than the number of new homes built. There is no connection between immigration and housebuilding, the issue is land and government policy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, I'm Brian said: In her world, I bet you all these houses are equipped with 50 inch T.V.s as well Going to be quite amusing to see who she blames if/when we do leave the EU, and all these problems still exist. Poor Brittney and Chad will still be living with their parents because they are too thick or lazy to get a job, but no Poles to blame for it. I got to know lots of Poles when I was working in Inverness in the hotel business. Most seemed to arrive with sufficient funds to put down a deposit on a flat or whatever, and would then proceed to work all the hours they could to pay for it, and many would progress to something better. They seldom made any demands on health/social services, and were generally happy just to have the opportunity to work. They were always 100% reliable, conciensous and efficient - not just the Poles, but most other EU migrants equally so. Harking back to the days prior to the expansion of the EU in 2004 hotels, restaurants, etc, had to rely on locals to fill seasonal vacancies - invariably on Monday mornings, someone wouldn't show up thanks to have been out on the lash over the weekend, which could create all kinds of problems. I used to laugh when hearing locals complain about all these immigrants coming over here, stealing our jobs, etc. Edited January 2, 2019 by ICTJohnboy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: but it exacerbates shortages? Aye because there was a shortage in 2017. Then in 2018 the population increased (partly) due to immigration and the shortage became exacerbated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 35 minutes ago, Detournement said: Figures show that the proportion of non UK born and UK born residents in social housing is equal so they obviously have equal access. What figures? I'd have thought newly arrived EU immigrants would go to the bottom of the queue unless there are urgent exceptions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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