Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Antlion said: The SNP apparently see Scotland as a distinct country within a union of nations, which you don't. Like it or not, it was the result was decided by the majority of voters in that "union of nations". True democrats respect the results of referendums according to the laws that enabled snd governed them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIEA Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 hours ago, doulikefish said: Is the extra 350 mill for the nhs in the white paper,Scotlands share is roughly 30mill? 1 hour ago, McSpreader said: .. Hope not .. I can think of a lot better things to spend it on than ferraris for senior consultants..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIEA Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Bishop Briggs said: True democrats respect the results of referendums according to the laws that enabled snd governed them. Referendums were a way of deciding things in primitive societies when a few hundred would gather round the tallest tree, rattle their beads and howl at the moon for a few hours before casting their vote. They are NOT a way of deciding things in an advanced civilised society1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, WILLIEA said: Referendums were a way of deciding things in primitive societies when a few hundred would gather round the tallest tree, rattle their beads and howl at the moon for a few hours before casting their vote. They are NOT a way of deciding things in an advanced civilised society1 Tell that the Swiss! You obviously think that they are barbarians. Ans you must think that the Scottish people should not be haven consulted on devolution or independence. Parliament should not be an elected dictatorship. Major constitutional changes should be subject to referendums. Awa' and bile yer thick heid! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Tell that the Swiss! You obviously think that they are barbarians. Ans you must think that the Scottish people should not be haven consulted on devolution or independence. Parliament should not be an elected dictatorship. Major constitutional changes should be subject to referendums. Awa' and bile yer thick heid! Whilst not wanting to disparage all referendums, I do kind of see some of where he is coming from. Our two most recent examples appear to show we have a high proportion in our society who are either dippit, senile, xenophobic, brainwashed, gullible or a combination of the above. Not the best combo for deciding our most important decisions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Tell that the Swiss! You obviously think that they are barbarians. Ans you must think that the Scottish people should not be haven consulted on devolution or independence. Parliament should not be an elected dictatorship. Major constitutional changes should be subject to referendums. Awa' and bile yer thick heid! Referendums are problematic. When a media holds such influence as they do in a country such as ours, and when wealth and power can effectively campaign for whatever view they hold, then it is very simple to undermine that which should be a decision based on clear information. There was no clear information in the Brexit referendum, but there was a big bus with a slogan and posters with lots of immigrants on them. Each individuals vote counts the same. But that means that someone who has pain-stakingly researched the issues carries the same weight as someone who just wants straight bananas. It seems democratic to allow everyone a say but that relies on the press, TV, and all influential voices to act with responsibility and that is simply not in their own best interests when the process can be gamed. It's the inherent hypocrisy of advertising that it is supposed to present clear and honest information when in fact it creates un-clear and dishonest information. E.G. A car won't get me a hot blonde and a win on the roulette tables in Monte Carlo, but that is the image that the advert wants me to think. Modern democracy is a very difficult concept to pin down and, increasingly to me, seems meaningless. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 minute ago, git-intae-thum said: Whilst not wanting to disparage all referendums, I do kind of see some of where he is coming from. Our two most recent examples appear to show we have a high proportion in our society who are either dippit, senile, xenophobic, brainwashed, gullible or a combination of the above. Not the best combo for deciding our most important decisions. You must be including IndyRef as an example. Those whom you look down upon also vote in national and local elections. Those who, like you, would deny them the vote are patronising elitists with a fascist mentality.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Tell that the Swiss! You obviously think that they are barbarians. Ans you must think that the Scottish people should not be haven consulted on devolution or independence. Parliament should not be an elected dictatorship. Major constitutional changes should be subject to referendums. Awa' and bile yer thick heid! No party apart from UKIP was in favour of a major constitutional change, there was no big EU treaty change to decide on. Cameron called it because it was the price he paid to be leader. A snap shot opinion poll should not commit the UK to jumping off the cliff if the electorate gain their senses, or cicumstances change. Another referendum agreeing or not agreeing the final settlement is the minimum. Edited February 2, 2017 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Bishop Briggs said: You must be including IndyRef as an example. Those whom you look down upon also vote in national and local elections. Those who, like you, would deny them the vote are patronising elitists with a fascist mentality.. Which one of the categories best fits you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Just now, Shades75 said: Referendums are problematic. When a media holds such influence as they do in a country such as ours, and when wealth and power can effectively campaign for whatever view they hold, then it is very simple to undermine that which should be a decision based on clear information. There was no clear information in the Brexit referendum, but there was a big bus with a slogan and posters with lots of immigrants on them. Each individuals vote counts the same. But that means that someone who has pain-stakingly researched the issues carries the same weight as someone who just wants straight bananas. It seems democratic to allow everyone a say but that relies on the press, TV, and all influential voices to act with responsibility and that is simply not in their own best interests when the process can be gamed. It's the inherent hypocrisy of advertising that it is supposed to present clear and honest information when in fact it creates un-clear and dishonest information. E.G. A car won't get me a hot blonde and a win on the roulette tables in Monte Carlo, but that is the image that the advert wants me to think. Modern democracy is a very difficult concept to pin down and, increasingly to me, seems meaningless. Leave won despite being outspent massively, on advertising and leaflets, by the Remain campaign. The Remain campaign had the support of nearly all the major parties - Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and SDLP. Yet Remain still managed to blow a clear poll lead in a few months. Instead of blaming referenda and voters, try blaming the politicians who screwed up the campaign. Insulting Leave voters as stupid old gits is just deflection. All that rhetoric does is to confirm that the Remainers who insult them are fascist scum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Leave won despite being outspent massively, on advertising and leaflets, by the Remain campaign. The Remain campaign had the support of nearly all the major parties - Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and SDLP. Yet Remain still managed to blow a clear poll lead in a few months. Instead of blaming referenda and voters, try blaming the politicians who screwed up the campaign. Insulting Leave voters as stupid old gits is just deflection. All that rhetoric does is to confirm that the Remainers who insult them are fascist scum. Nah. The proper fascist scum were supporting brexit. https://bnp.org.uk/brexit-is-our-destiny/ Nae luck chump 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, welshbairn said: No party apart from UKIP was in favour of a major constitutional change, there was no big EU treaty change to decide on. Cameron called it because it was the price he paid to be leader. A snap shot opinion poll should not commit the UK to jumping off the cliff if the electorate gain their senses, or cicumstances change. Another referendum agreeing or not agreeing the final settlement is the minimum. The referendum was not a snapshot opinion poll. There was a lengthy campaign, in effect lasting almost a year, before the vote. Remain blew a substantial poll lead. The SNP did not promise a second referendum on the UK divorce deal if Yes had triumphed in 2014. Is this another case of double standards and hypocrisy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said: Nah. The proper fascist scum were supporting brexit. https://bnp.org.uk/brexit-is-our-destiny/ Nae luck chump So all Leave voters are BNP supporters? You are a moronic idiot with shite for brains. Nae luck chump. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Ruthie and Mundane going against their principles. Spineless bloody Tories eh? Mundell going against the specific wishes of 56% of his electorate in DC&T. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said: Leave won despite being outspent massively, on advertising and leaflets, by the Remain campaign. The Remain campaign had the support of nearly all the major parties - Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and SDLP. Yet Remain still managed to blow a clear poll lead in a few months. Instead of blaming referenda and voters, try blaming the politicians who screwed up the campaign. Insulting Leave voters as stupid old gits is just deflection. All that rhetoric does is to confirm that the Remainers who insult them are fascist scum. All those who lost should shoulder some blame, of course. There are many factors in play in a referendum such as the one we've just seen - I'm merely opining on one of them, media influence and the inconsisties of information - whether that be the fault of the individual or the mechanisms providing that information, there are real discrepancies. Another choice that some will make is whether to vote with the government or against. A lot of people might like to give the government a kicking when they get the chance. In general elections these votes are dispersed but in a binary choice, well they'll be concentrated on one side. I salute the optimism and the faith in the collective human intellect of those that believe that all who voted in the EU referendum, any referendum for that matter, are as informed as they should be and that that information has been delivered wholly by people of impeccable integrity. Just as an aside, does it not seem a little "un-democratic" if you will, to dismiss any questioning of the referendum process out of hand? Shouldn't we always question and isn't it rather totalitarian not to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIEA Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Yes the Swiss do have referendums but there has been much debate in the country as to whether they should still be deciding things in the same way as several hundred years ago. There have been calls to change. Ross will know more about this . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Leave won despite being outspent massively, on advertising and leaflets, by the Remain campaign. The Remain campaign had the support of nearly all the major parties - Conservative, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and SDLP. Yet Remain still managed to blow a clear poll lead in a few months. Instead of blaming referenda and voters, try blaming the politicians who screwed up the campaign. Insulting Leave voters as stupid old gits is just deflection. All that rhetoric does is to confirm that the Remainers who insult them are fascist scum. They didn't need to spend when many British newspapers were campaigning (and lying) rabidly for Brexit. In certain cases it's clear why they did so - not out of any care for the country but pure self-interest of owners (Murdoch, Rothermere, Desmond) not to mention editors like Dacre who were settling political scores with Cameron. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Just now, Shades75 said: All those who lost should shoulder some blame, of course. There are many factors in play in a referendum such as the one we've just seen - I'm merely opining on one of them, media influence and the inconsisties of information - whether that be the fault of the individual or the mechanisms providing that information, there are real discrepancies. Another choice that some will make is whether to vote with the government or against. A lot of people might like to give the government a kicking when they get the chance. In general elections these votes are dispersed but in a binary choice, well they'll be concentrated on one side. I salute the optimism and the faith in the collective human intellect of those that believe that all who voted in the EU referendum, any referendum for that matter, are as informed as they should be and that that information has been delivered wholly by people of impeccable integrity. Just as an aside, does it not seem a little "un-democratic" if you will, to dismiss any questioning of the referendum process out of hand? Shouldn't we always question and isn't it rather totalitarian not to? There was little or no questioning of the referendum whilst Remain was in the lead. There is no questioning of the value of a referendum when IndyRef2 is discussed. Several Remainers on here were creaming themselves that Scotland could swing the result for Remain if England voted to Leave. Only now that the EUref result was the reverse, the legitimacy of referendums is being questioned. It's just sanctimonious hypocrisy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: They didn't need to spend when many British newspapers were campaigning (and lying) rabidly for Brexit. In certain cases it's clear why they did so - not out of any care for the country but pure self-interest of owners (Murdoch, Rothermere, Desmond) not to mention efitors like Dacre who were settling political scores with Cameron. Get your facts right. Lord Rothermere was Remain supporter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hehawhehaw Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, WILLIEA said: Referendums were a way of deciding things in primitive societies when a few hundred would gather round the tallest tree, rattle their beads and howl at the moon for a few hours before casting their vote. They are NOT a way of deciding things in an advanced civilised society1 I take it you have a cutnpaste/fakenews link for this utter shite 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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