Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

It's the bottom league not the supposed top of East of scotland football

East of Scotland League is the bottom tier of Senior football.

[RobM]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

You've not really grasped the point.  Nobody is leaving anything, this is about all Junior clubs integrating with other non-league clubs in the same league system (did you look at my example?). 

On the point of Hawick v Selkirk, this overlooks the fact that they are only there because other clubs (Juniors) refuse to take part, the probably wouldn't otherwise be playing at that level. So to use that as a stick to criticise the LL with is a bit disingenuous.

You've also not really addressed the question I asked, why should clubs be kept apart for no good reason? why should Whitehill Welfare be prevented from playing Bonnyrigg Rose? or Preston Athletic from playing Musselburgh?  Is there a good reason why this should continue?

They would be, 'Junior clubs would be leaving what is largely a healthy set-up, one that isn't broken.

Hawick v Stirling Uni it was, the LL is currently a home to them as the senior set-up also is to Edusport and BSC Glasgow.  Perhaps it isn't disingenuous to ask why established clubs are loathe to take the plunge and move into a unified set-up?  That is certainly the case currently, take up has been minimal.   Again we get back to the point that the Junior leagues are largely healthy and there would be a risk inherent in leaving them.

I'm sure if Bonnyrigg Rose had any real desire to play Whitehill Welfare then they would've moved over.  Why hasn't this happened?

I'd argue that Musselburgh have had a better time of it in recent years than Preston, we tend to get more in in the junior game than they did in the LL when they were in there.  

I did look at your proposal, it's a variation on something I've seen 100 times before.

[RobM]

To go back to the original question junior football would in all likelihood still thrive in its current form even if it lost a few more clubs like Kelty.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, RobM said:

They would be, 'Junior clubs would be leaving what is largely a healthy set-up, one that isn't broken.

Hawick v Stirling Uni it was, the LL is currently a home to them as the senior set-up also is to Edusport and BSC Glasgow.  Perhaps it isn't disingenuous to ask why established clubs are loathe to take the plunge and move into a unified set-up?  That is certainly the case currently, take up has been minimal.   Again we get back to the point that the Junior leagues are largely healthy and there would be a risk inherent in leaving them.

I'm sure if Bonnyrigg Rose had any real desire to play Whitehill Welfare then they would've moved over.  Why hasn't this happened?

I'd argue that Musselburgh have had a better time of it in recent years than Preston, we tend to get more in in the junior game than they did in the LL when they were in there.  

I did look at your proposal, it's a variation on something I've seen 100 times before.

The question I asked is why should these clubs be prevented from playing each other, in other words, why should we continue with separate set-ups?  Why should clubs have to leave one Association and join another in order to play each other, do you think that benefits the game overall?

The Junior game isn't healthy, crowds at all levels are suffering - when we played Arniston I counted 60 people there, 60 and half of those were from Blackburn. That's not the Arniston I remember.   I asked a Glenrothes guy the other week what their crowds were like, they don't normally break 100 was the answer. At some matches in the South Division there are hardly any paying fans at all.  Outwith the bigger clubs in the Region it is exceptionally hard to garner interest and people through the gates these days.

So you looked at my proposal, what is there to be afraid of from a Junior perspective?

[pumphy_man]

Has Blackburn got any ambitions about going for the sfa licence and joining the EoS league then hopefully the LL

 

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

East of Scotland League is the bottom tier of Senior football.

Thatso twisting it and you know it. It wouldnt be in your world if we were tagged on

[Burnie_man]

29 minutes ago, pumphy_man said:

Has Blackburn got any ambitions about joining the EoS league then hopefully the LL

Not that I am aware of, as a club though I think they would back any proposal to integrate the EoSFL and East Region.    We've seen Craigroyston and Easthouses join the Juniors recently, I don't think anyone sees any difference between EoSFL clubs and Junior clubs in the way they are run/operate.  Just my take.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Burnie_man

[stanley]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Thatso twisting it and you know it. It wouldnt be in your world if we were tagged on

And it would soon become a league full of junior clubs if the junior leagues were tagged on.  Most of the teams in the league currently would fall to a lower level.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Thatso twisting it and you know it. It wouldnt be in your world if we were tagged on

It's not twisting anything it's the bottom rung of the Senior ladder, just like the South Division is the bottom of the Junior ladder! A club can join either set-up if they wish.

[RobM]

There's nothing to be afraid of but it doesn't really offer anything particularly exciting or Junior clubs would be all over it.  There is the big question you have to ask.  Why is that?

Arniston have had many problems of late, not related to the set-up they play in.   Glenrothes manage fine in the Junior leagues with what they pull in financially, they wouldn't pull in any more for a game against Edusport, Hawick, Whitehill, Selkirk, I could name more.

I've been to EoS games where it's basically a public park, there isn't a gate to pay at.    

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, stanley said:

And it would soon become a league full of junior clubs if the junior leagues were tagged on.  Most of the teams in the league currently would fall to a lower level.

Correct, but Alan doesn't want to accept that point.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, RobM said:

There's nothing to be afraid of but it doesn't really offer anything particularly exciting or Junior clubs would be all over it.  There is the big question you have to ask.  Why is that?

Arniston have had many problems of late, not related to the set-up they play in.   Glenrothes manage fine in the Junior leagues with what they pull in financially, they wouldn't pull in any more for a game against Edusport, Hawick, Whitehill, Selkirk, I could name more.

I've been to EoS games where it's basically a public park, there isn't a gate to pay at.    

So there's nothing to be afraid of, the fact is nothing much would change for the majority of current Junior clubs except that there would be no glass ceiling to progression for those who wanted it, and you're part of a set-up that benefits from SFA funding in various guises, plus a more professional set-up which even has fixture lists.  Junior clubs are not all over it because there are too many who eye it all with suspicion because they don't fully grasp the bigger picture, and have been told lies and half-truths in the past by the Junior heirachy. There are however a growing number who are asking what does the future hold if we just plod along as we are (which maybe has prompted this Working Group at the SJFA), if we do Kelty wont be the last to leave.

Arniston Rangers are a club that should be getting more than 60 people through the gate, same with Dalkeith who had 50 at our game, Glenrothes should be able to attract more than 100 people. These are either traditional hotbeds of Junior football or come from large towns. The question that needs to be asked is why are people not interested?

 

[RobM]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So there's nothing to be afraid of, the fact is nothing much would change for the majority of current Junior clubs except that there would be no glass ceiling to progression for those who wanted it, and you're part of a set-up that benefits from SFA funding in various guises, plus a more professional set-up which even has fixture lists.  Junior clubs are not all over it because there are too many who eye it all with suspicion because they don't fully grasp the bigger picture, and have been told lies and half-truths in the past by the Junior heirachy. There are however a growing number who are asking what does the future hold if we just plod along as we are (which maybe has prompted this Working Group at the SJFA), if we do Kelty wont be the last to leave.

Arniston Rangers are a club that should be getting more than 60 people through the gate, same with Dalkeith who had 50 at our game, Glenrothes should be able to attract more than 100 people. These are either traditional hotbeds of Junior football or come from large towns. The question that needs to be asked is why are people not interested?

 

I don't think anybody's afraid,  Try approaching it from a positive angle and see what benefits you could offer Junior clubs that differ from previous proposals.  Your suggestion is simply a variation on these and won't particularly excite clubs or supporters who are happy with the current format and happy to engineer that to suit within the Junior game.

You're very condescending to Junior fans who don't agree with you on occasion.  

[Che Dail]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Arniston Rangers are a club that should be getting more than 60 people through the gate, same with Dalkeith who had 50 at our game, Glenrothes should be able to attract more than 100 people. These are either traditional hotbeds of Junior football or come from large towns. The question that needs to be asked is why are people not interested?

 

Burnie_man nobody even heard of Blackburn before SuBo! 

Seriously though, it  would make very little difference if you swapped Kirriemuir and Forfar with Duns and Leith Athletic.   Having a Club Licence and Scottish Cup entry would be massive though, and a return to local football at this level would help most clubs. 

If you have kids playing against the same teams that the adult 1st team is facing week after week it might generate more interest.  

[Burnie_man]

Just now, RobM said:

I don't think anybody's afraid,  Try approaching it from a positive angle and see what benefits you could offer Junior clubs that differ from previous proposals.  Your suggestion is simply a variation on these and won't particularly excite clubs or supporters who are happy with the current format and happy to engineer that to suit within the Junior game.

You're very condescending to Junior fans who don't agree with you on occasion.  

I'm not condescending, perhaps I ask questions and raise arguments that people have difficulty in squaring with their own views. I wont shy away from that.

Given you seem to be against the integration of the non-league game, perhaps you could detail the long term benefits of Junior clubs remaining separate from the wider game and the SFA/SPFL? I've already provided examples of where the game is in trouble, people are losing interest, the East Superleague Champions have left, other clubs are reported to be considering following them.

How would you propose to reverse that?

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Burnie_man nobody even heard of Blackburn before SuBo! 

Seriously though, it  would make very little difference if you swapped Kirriemuir and Forfar with Duns and Leith Athletic.   Having a Club Licence and Scottish Cup entry would be massive though, and a return to local football at this level would help most clubs. 

If you have kids playing against the same teams that the adult 1st team is facing week after week it might generate more interest.  

Haha, aye we have always been the small fry!!  enjoying at the moment though.

[AlanCamelonfan]

50 minutes ago, stanley said:

And it would soon become a league full of junior clubs if the junior leagues were tagged on.  Most of the teams in the league currently would fall to a lower level.

yes but it would take 5/6 years for most of those teams to drop to the bottom league

[RobM]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm not condescending, perhaps I ask questions and raise arguments that people have difficulty in squaring with their own views. I wont shy away from that.

Given you seem to be against the integration of the non-league game, perhaps you could detail the long term benefits of Junior clubs remaining separate from the wider game and the SFA/SPFL? I've already provided examples of where the game is in trouble, people are losing interest, the East Superleague Champions have left, other clubs are reported to be considering following them.

How would you propose to reverse that?

I wouldn't, if teams feel they want to move on then good luck to them.

I'm not necessarily against the integration of the game, you have chosen however to provide solely examples (sketchy ones at that) aimed at the Junior leagues.  Dalkeith has never been a hot-bed of the game and you have still refused to acknowledge there have been problems at Arniston which have had an impact which have absolutely nothing to do with the league they play in.  You've mentioned teams who perhaps struggle to get people through the gates and you aren't willing to acknowledge there are a number of factors at work here rather you'd  twist that towards your viewpoint but that isn't evidence of anything.  I'd be interested to see your breakdown of crowds at Glenrothes over say a ten year period which might add some weight to your theory that the junior game is ruining them.

I've seen first hand the progress Musselburgh have made within the current structure, crowds are up, we're a better side, we have made progress.  You aren't offering anything new, it's simply a rehash of old plans which haven't proven alluring enough in the past to entice clubs like us into a merger.  It's not unusual in football for some clubs to rise while some perhaps have a period where they maybe struggle a little.  Tranent would be a good example here, they appear to be rebuilding just fine in the Junior game.

People aren't losing interest, we're still seeing decent turn-outs at our games after our relegation this year.  We're going to need more proof for your theory that people are with more weight than your anecdotal theorising and you need to be looking at other factors impacting on clubs such as Arniston before you claim that your examples are indicative of a decline in the Junior game.

[Che Dail]

23 minutes ago, RobM said:

I've seen first hand the progress Musselburgh have made within the current structure, crowds are up, we're a better side, we have made progress. 

 Tranent would be a good example here, they appear to be rebuilding just fine in the Junior game.

 

Going from Junior Cup finalists to barely winning a home league game last season isn't great progress.

Tranent v Easthouses in the Scottish Junior Cup last weekend - lucky if there were 60-70 paying supporters at that judging by the photos online, and if the visitors left the ground with more than £90 share of the gate after costs I'd be surprised. 

Tranent are traditionally a well supported club, brought back to life in recent years by good folk and smart investment in the ground and playing squad.  Their Community Club achieved SFA 'Legacy' status in recent years and it does great work locally, all run by volunteers.  Yet despite the incredible success the Juniors had last season winning 2 cups they still struggle to get folk out to watch the team like everyone else.  

Something's not right...

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Che Dail

[RobM]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Going from Junior Cup finalists to barely winning a home league game last season isn't great progress.

Tranent v Easthouses in the Scottish Junior Cup last weekend - lucky if there were 60-70 paying supporters at that judging by the photos online, and if the visitors left the ground with more than £90 share of the gate after costs I'd be surprised. 

Tranent are traditionally a well supported club, brought back to life in recent years by good folk and smart investment in the ground and playing squad.  Their Community Club achieved SFA 'Legacy' status in recent years and it does great work locally, all run by volunteers.  Yet despite the incredible success the Juniors had last season winning 2 cups they still struggle to get folk out to watch the team like everyone else.  

Something's not right...

 

The progress we've made in the last 15-20 years has been huge if you don't want to narrow it down to a shorter time-scale to suit your own argument.

Excellent crowd at the recent Tranent v Burgh game.