Junior football, what is the future?

[archieb]

5 hours ago, Che Dail said:

 

WEST & CENTRAL: 15 Linlithgow Rose   Broxburn Athletic   Camelon Juniors   Boness United   Sauchie Juniors     Fauldhouse United   Blackburn United   Bathgate Thistle   Whitburn Juniors   Pumpherston Juniors   West Calder United   Armadale Thistle   Livingston United   Stoneyburn Juniors

MID & EAST: 12 Penicuik Athletic   Bonnyrigg Rose   Newtongrange Star     Musselburgh Athletic   Haddington Athletic   Tranent Juniors   Dalkeith Thistle   Dunbar United   Arniston Rangers   Edinburgh United   Craigroyston Easthouses Lily MW

FIFE: 12 Dundonald Bluebell   Hill of Beath Hawthorn   Kennoway Star Hearts     Tayport St Andrews Glenrothes Thornton Hibs      Rosyth Lochgelly Albert   Crossgates Primrose   Oakley United   Kirkcaldy YM

 

37 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Thaqts 38 clubs their is only 14 in your west central league

Harthill Royal missing?

[Che Dail]

Just now, archieb said:

 

Harthill Royal missing?

aye, sorry, that's the 15th

[Che Dail]

8 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Thaqts 38 clubs their is only 14 in your west central league

Sorry Alan - it's meant to be just a list of clubs from the 3 regions within the East Junior set-up as quoted by the previous poster, and not 3 league tables.

The purpose is to show that if 10 of these 39 clubs moved to EoS, there would be 2 leagues of 12 when added to the existing clubs.

My point is that even if only 3 or 4 of the top SL clubs make the switch (worst / best case scenario whichever way you look at it, say any 3 from: Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Newtongrange, Broxburn) then you'd be left with a diminished league - same applies to the Premier. 

Given the obvious financial and competitive long-term incentives for these clubs to do so (with SFA Licence) this is a real possibility.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Che Dail

[Che Dail]

37 minutes ago, kefc said:

This setup needs to be discussed and promoted ASAP for the greater good, a new exciting non league setup  in Scottish football can revitalise so many communities all around the country and possibly egnite a real interest again from the bottom of the game in Scotland which should carry through right to the top. 

Completely agree - although to my mind the discussion and promotion has to be led by the clubs, rather than by the SJFA which as an organisation is not properly serving the interests of its member clubs.  

[archieb]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Completely agree - although to my mind the discussion and promotion has to be led by the clubs, rather than by the SJFA which as an organisation is not properly serving the interests of its member clubs.  

You are absolutely correct.

Critically, what's been missing ever since the idea of the LL was first raised is a meaningful dialogue between the clubs.

In the West Region, General Meetings have been tightly controlled by the management committee and, I'm led to believe, until last season essentially pointless in terms of discussion or driving forward any positive initiatives.

That changed almost a year ago, when it became apparent that proposals for change were being developed independently by 4 or 5 clubs from across divisions and across the region. This led to representatives of about a dozen clubs in all, that had already expressed interest in league reconstruction, meeting together to compare ideas and take the process forward as a joint exercise.

Tellingly, this was actually objected to by the West management committee, who asserted that they had instructed that only the clubs that had submitted draft proposals to them should enter into discussion and that, essentially, other clubs should not have been included! How dare they try to control who is allowed to speak to each other!

On the contrary, such grass-roots inter-club contacts are desperately needed both on a regional and a national basis, to discuss all sorts of matters of concern and involving as many interested parties as is practically possible, with the intention of establishing and driving forward a common agenda. And there's no reason chat here on P&B can't be the starting point.

Edited October 28, 2017 by archieb

[clash city rocker]

9 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

A WoSFL League could potentially look like this, effectively a West Superleague with SoSFL licenced clubs tagged on and Glasgow Uni (they could be told to join or lose their Licence)

St.Cuthberts W

Threave R

Newton Stewart

Glasgow Uni

Beith

Kilbirnie L

Kilwinning R

Auchinleck T

Pollok

Kirkintilloch RR

Glenafton Ath

Hurlford Utd

Girvan

Arthurlie

Clydebank

Cumnock

The important part is what happens at the bottom, well you’d keep the new West Region structure as is and feed into it (two/three, up/down) so nothing much changes for most Junior clubs, they carry on as before.  The remaining SoSFL clubs are given the choice to either join the Junior structure at an appropriate level or carry on as a separate league with the chance of direct promotion to the new WoSFL.  Champs to be promoted along with EoSFL Champs to LL.  If the Champs in either league are not licenced, then it falls to the second or third placed club to take up that opportunity.

For the East of Scotland League, there are currently three vacancies to make the number up to 16, open this up to 3 Junior clubs.  Also, allow any existing members of the EoSFL to instead join the current Junior structure at an appropriate level if they wish to do so (similar to Craigroyston and Easthouses), otherwise it would be two/three, up/down with the existing East Superleague.

This would provide a relatively pain-free introduction to the Pyramid for Junior clubs, nothing much would change for the vast majority, but those at the top level can progress and go down the road of becoming Licenced. WoSFL, EoSFL and HL clubs enter the Junior Cup as the national non-league competition.

In 5 years from the start, you’d find the LL with a healthy contingent of former Junior clubs, and the weaker LL, EoSFL, SoSFL clubs would find their own level at some point within the wider (former) Junior structure, but retain their SFA Cup spot, and enjoy entering a national non-league comp.

Thoughts?

Newton Stewart 0 Kelty Hearts 10

Can we have Colville Park and Hurlford Thistle ammies instead ?

[AlanCamelonfan]

20 hours ago, archieb said:

 

Harthill Royal missing?

Also forgot about Lochore welfare so 40 ersjfa clubs

[Che Dail]

36 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Also forgot about Lochore welfare so 40 ersjfa clubs

Actually thought Lochore are North region...?

Edited October 28, 2017 by Che Dail

[archieb]

28 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Actually thought Lochore are North region...?

Lochore is in Fife.

Maybe you confused them with Lochee (Dundee)?

[AlanCamelonfan]

34 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Actually thought Lochore are North region...?

as archies just said. They are in fife but play in the East region North League

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Actually thought Lochore are North region...?

Right I had a go at trying to work out for if example the EOSFL and Ersjfa merged from next season. Working on that Kelty Hearts won the EOSFL and were promoted to Lowland League and that the former Tayside clubs weren't involved that would leave 40 clubs from Ersjfa and 14 (including a supposed returning Duns) from EOSFL. Worked roughly based on finishing positions. So you could move it about as you like.  16 team Lowland League. with 2 up two down. EOS Premiership winners and a revamped WOSFL/SOSFL merger winners.

 

East of Scotland Premiership

1.Hawick Royal Albert

2. Leith Athletic

3. Preston Athletic

4. Heriott Watt Uni

5.Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

6. Stirling Uni (eosfl)

7. Tynecastle

8. Bo'ness United

9. Linlithgow Rose

10. Penicuik Athletic

11.Bonnyrigg Rose

12. Dundonald Bluebell

13. Broxburn Athletic

14. Camelon Juniors

East of Scotland West League

1. Fauldhouse United

2. Blackburn United

3. Bathgate Thistle

4. Whitburn Juniors

5. Pumpherston Juniors

6. West Calder United

7. Armadale Thistle

8. Livingston United

9. Stoneyburn Juniors

10. Harthill Royal

11.. Edinburgh United

12. Craigroyston

 

East of Scotland Central League

1. Tayport

2.St Andrews

3.Glenrothes

4.Thornton Hibs

5. Lochore Welfare

6.Rosyth

7.Lochgelly Albert  

8.Crossgates Primrose  

9. Oakley United  

10. Kirkcaldy YM  

11. Burntisland Shipyard

12. Hill O'Beath Hawthorn

13. Kennoway Star Hearts

14. Sauchie Juniors

 

East Of Scottland South League

1. Coldstream

2. Eyemouth

3. Ormiston

4. Tweedmouth Rangers

5. Duns

6. Musselburgh Athletic

7. Haddington Athletic

8. Tranent Juniors

9. Dalkeith Thistle

10. Dunbar United

11. Arniston Rangers

12. Easthouses

13.. Newtongrange Star

14. Peebles Rovers

[Che Dail]

19 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Right I had a go at trying to work out for if example the EOSFL and Ersjfa merged from next season. Working on that Kelty Hearts won the EOSFL and were promoted to Lowland League and that the former Tayside clubs weren't involved that would leave 40 clubs from Ersjfa and 14 (including a supposed returning Duns) from EOSFL. Worked roughly based on finishing positions. So you could move it about as you like.  16 team Lowland League. with 2 up two down. EOS Premiership winners and a revamped WOSFL/SOSFL merger winners.

 

East of Scotland Premiership

1.Hawick Royal Albert

2. Leith Athletic

3. Preston Athletic

4. Heriott Watt Uni

5.Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

6. Stirling Uni (eosfl)

7. Tynecastle

8. Bo'ness United

9. Linlithgow Rose

10. Penicuik Athletic

11.Bonnyrigg Rose

12. Dundonald Bluebell

13. Broxburn Athletic

14. Camelon Juniors

 

East of Scotland West League

1. Fauldhouse United

2. Blackburn United

3. Bathgate Thistle

4. Whitburn Juniors

5. Pumpherston Juniors

6. West Calder United

7. Armadale Thistle

8. Livingston United

9. Stoneyburn Juniors

10. Harthill Royal

11.. Edinburgh United

12. Craigroyston

 

East of Scotland Central League

1. Tayport

2.St Andrews

3.Glenrothes

4.Thornton Hibs

5. Lochore Welfare

6.Rosyth

7.Lochgelly Albert  

8.Crossgates Primrose  

9. Oakley United  

10. Kirkcaldy YM  

11. Burntisland Shipyard

12. Hill O'Beath Hawthorn

13. Kennoway Star Hearts

14. Sauchie Juniors

 

East Of Scottland South League

1. Coldstream

2. Eyemouth

3. Ormiston

4. Tweedmouth Rangers

5. Duns

6. Musselburgh Athletic

7. Haddington Athletic

8. Tranent Juniors

9. Dalkeith Thistle

10. Dunbar United

11. Arniston Rangers

12. Easthouses

13.. Newtongrange Star

14. Peebles Rovers

What about Newburgh?? 

Only kidding - it's really good, basically what it could look like if all the clubs switched over next season. 

And every single club would be able to work towards a licence and ultimately have access to the Scottish Cup regardless of which division or region they find themselves in. 

Not sure I'd have Camelon ahead of Newtongrange mind you... 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Che Dail

[AlanCamelonfan]

As for cup competitions. You'd have the Scottish Cup for licenced. For the 79 WOSFL and 56 EOSFL clubs and 16 Lowland League Clubs would compete in the South Challenge Cup.   The 56 EOSFL clubs plus East of Scotland clubs from Lowland League would compete in the East of Scotland Cup.

Edited October 28, 2017 by AlanCamelonfan

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, Che Dail said:

What about Newburgh?? 

Only kidding - its really good, basically what it could look like if all the clubs switched over next season. 

And every single club would be able to work towards a licence and ultimately have access to the Scottish Cup regardless of which division or region they find themselves in. 

Not sure I'd have Camelon ahead of Newtongrange mind you... 

You could add Newburgh and potentially Dunipace could move East and would balance the Leagues out a bit better by adding Dunipace and moving Sauchie to the West League and putting Newburgh in the Central

[AlanCamelonfan]

A revised Look.

East of Scotland Premiership

1.Hawick Royal Albert

2. Leith Athletic

3. Preston Athletic

4. Heriott Watt Uni

5.Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

6. Stirling Uni (eosfl)

7. Tynecastle

8. Bo'ness United

9. Linlithgow Rose

10. Penicuik Athletic

11.Bonnyrigg Rose

12. Dundonald Bluebell

13. Broxburn Athletic

14. Camelon Juniors

East of Scotland West League

1. Fauldhouse United

2. Blackburn United

3. Bathgate Thistle

4. Whitburn Juniors

5. Pumpherston Juniors

6. West Calder United

7. Armadale Thistle

8. Livingston United

9. Stoneyburn Juniors

10. Harthill Royal

11.. Edinburgh United

12. Craigroyston

13. Sauchie Juniors

14. Dunipace Juniors

 

 

East of Scotland Central League

1. Tayport

2.St Andrews

3.Glenrothes

4.Thornton Hibs

5. Lochore Welfare

6.Rosyth

7.Lochgelly Albert  

8.Crossgates Primrose  

9. Oakley United 

10. Kirkcaldy YM  

11. Burntisland Shipyard

12. Hill O'Beath Hawthorn

13. Kennoway Star Hearts

14. Newburgh

East Of Scottland South League

1. Coldstream

2. Eyemouth

3. Ormiston

4. Tweedmouth Rangers

5. Duns

6. Musselburgh Athletic

7. Haddington Athletic

8. Tranent Juniors

9. Dalkeith Thistle

10. Dunbar United

11. Arniston Rangers

12. Easthouses

13.. Newtongrange Star

14. Peebles Rovers

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

OK who has hacked Alan's account

In all seriousness that setup show how easy it could be to organise the East of Scotland sides in an expanded pyramid.

Gogsy I'm only against the current EOSFL and teams joining it. Where as a merged system would be different.

 

I did actually try an 18 team premiership and two 18 team divisions below but regionally it wasn't working out.

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

A revised Look.

East of Scotland Premiership

1.Hawick Royal Albert

2. Leith Athletic

3. Preston Athletic

4. Heriott Watt Uni

5.Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

6. Stirling Uni (eosfl)

7. Tynecastle

8. Bo'ness United

9. Linlithgow Rose

10. Penicuik Athletic

11.Bonnyrigg Rose

12. Dundonald Bluebell

13. Broxburn Athletic

14. Camelon Juniors

East of Scotland West League

1. Fauldhouse United

2. Blackburn United

3. Bathgate Thistle

4. Whitburn Juniors

5. Pumpherston Juniors

6. West Calder United

7. Armadale Thistle

8. Livingston United

9. Stoneyburn Juniors

10. Harthill Royal

11.. Edinburgh United

12. Craigroyston

13. Sauchie Juniors

14. Dunipace Juniors

East of Scotland Central League

1. Tayport

2.St Andrews

3.Glenrothes

4.Thornton Hibs

5. Lochore Welfare

6.Rosyth

7.Lochgelly Albert  

8.Crossgates Primrose  

9. Oakley United 

10. Kirkcaldy YM  

11. Burntisland Shipyard

12. Hill O'Beath Hawthorn

13. Kennoway Star Hearts

14. Newburgh

 

East Of Scotland South League

1. Coldstream

2. Eyemouth

3. Ormiston

4. Tweedmouth Rangers

5. Duns

6. Musselburgh Athletic

7. Haddington Athletic

8. Tranent Juniors

9. Dalkeith Thistle

10. Dunbar United

11. Arniston Rangers

12. Easthouses

13.. Newtongrange Star

14. Peebles Rovers

I wonder if any West region clubs would be into that rather than SoS route to the Lowland - eg Pollok in the Premiership...?  Only an hour or so for most of those clubs into Glasgow. 

Eyemouth currently go to Stirling and vice-versa so why not?

Linlithgow to Pollok is 50 minutes?  Pollok to LTHV in an hour.  Really could be  a fantastic league.

Endless permutations I suppose but the key thing is establishing the principle that what is set out above is achievable,  everyone keeping an open mind, and of course the EoS Association welcoming the approach and some of it's clubs being amenable to being demoted right away. 

On the face of it though it seems like an easy sell to the likes of Ormiston and Coldstream when looking at the new clubs they'd be in with and the (slightly) reduced travel distance for league matches.

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, Che Dail said:

I wonder if any West region clubs would be into that rather than SoS route to the Lowland - eg Pollok in the Premiership...?  Only an hour or so for most of those clubs into Glasgow. 

Eyemouth currently go to Stirling and vice-versa so why not?

Linlithgow to Pollok is 50 minutes?  Pollok to LTHV in an hour.  Really could be  a fantastic league.

Endless permutations I suppose but the key thing is establishing the principle that what is set out above is achievable,  everyone keeping an open mind, and of course the EoS Association welcoming the approach and some of it's clubs being amenable to being demoted right away. 

On the face of it though it seems like an easy sell to the likes of Ormiston and Coldstream when looking at the new clubs they'd be in with and the (slightly) reduced travel distance for league matches.

 

You;d just do same for West as I did with East. A lot of the SOSFL teams wouldn't want too so if they wanted to do their own they could just be a district league just the same.

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, gogsy said:

If im being honest that's what I was looking at as well.

You had too many north/west teams and not enough for the south. Had ridiculous notions that west lothian would be split and two teams would have to go to south. I think adding Dunipace and going 4 divisions of 14 would be the way to go.

 

Tayside clubs, banks o dee, golspie and anyone else up their that wanted to join could join Northern Ieagues and open up Highland League

[Burnie_man]

Some good suggestions, however, you need to remember that we’re not going to get any dramatic change to the set-up, therefore if the Juniors want to be involved you plug in the existing Junior network into the current EoSFL. Therefore based on current league positions for illustration purposes, Linlithgow, Penicuik and Bonnyrigg all move into the EoSFL. You also give current EoSFL clubs the option of leaving and joining the structure at whatever point they feel comfortable in  eg Tweedmouth may be happier in the South Division.  Either way, two relegation spots into the Superleague with also a play-off spot. Yes, short term you’ll have some pretty lop sided results that Kelty are enjoying at the moment, but within three seasons you’d have around half of the clubs currently in the Superleague playing in the EoSFL, and within 5 seasons it would be dominated by former Junior clubs (with a number having made the jump to LL) and we’d all be wondering what the fuss was about.

I appreciate that clubs north to the Tay are supposed to play in the HL structure, but given that is currently a closed shop, they remain within the LL structure and can if they wish move (like Montrose Roselea did) when that situation changes.

No more artificial divides, no more glass ceilings, and a chance to progress if desired.

 

East of Scotland League               

Kelty Hearts

Leith Athletic

Preston Athletic

Heriot Watt University

Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

Stirling University (EOSFL)

Tynecastle

Peebles Rovers

Coldstream

Burntisland Shipyard

Eyemouth United

Ormiston

Tweedmouth Rangers

Linlithgow Rose 

Penicuik Athletic 

Bonnyrigg Rose 

               

East Superleague            

Lochee United 

Dundonald Bluebell 

Broughty Athletic 

Broxburn Athletic 

Camelon Juniors 

Jeanfield Swifts 

Newtongrange Star 

Hill of Beath Hawthorn 

Carnoustie Panmure 

Boness United 

Kennoway Star Hearts 

Sauchie Juniors 

Forfar West End 

Musselburgh Athletic 

Fauldhouse United 

Haddington Athletic 

               

East Premierleague        

Blackburn United 

St Andrews United 

Tayport 

Tranent Juniors  

Glenrothes 

Dalkeith Thistle 

Downfield 

Dunbar United 

Thornton Hibs 

Bathgate Thistle 

Kirriemuir Thistle 

Whitburn Juniors 

Arniston Rangers 

Luncarty 

Edinburgh United 

Pumpherston Juniors 

               

East North Division         

Scone Thistle 

Dundee Violet 

Dundee North End 

Kinnoull 

Blairgowrie 

Lochee Harp 

East Craigie 

Lochore Welfare 

Arbroath Vics 

Brechin Vics 

Coupar Angus 

Newburgh 

Forfar Albion 

               

East South Division         

West Calder United 

Craigroyston 

Armadale Thistle 

Rosyth 

Lochgelly Albert 

Crossgates Primrose 

Oakley United 

Easthouses Lily MW 

Harthill Royal 

Livingston United 

Stoneyburn Juniors 

Kirkcaldy YM 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Burnie_man