Junior football, what is the future?

[Hillonearth]

11 minutes ago, drs said:

...but that's the Stirling Uni B team, the team actually made up of students.

Yeah, I know– so are HWU as well for that matter. It’s not like it blows the whole illustration out of the water though – both were still ostensibly meant to be a step up from what they were playing previously.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

No-one’s talking about jumping queues, but there has to be a realistic acceptance in any future restructuring discussion of the relative strengths of some of the organisations involved if more of the mismatched comedy gold that ensued when one of the better Junior clubs finally made the step “up” is to be avoided:

Kelty 11 Eyemouth 1

Coldstream 2 Kelty 5

Kelty 7 Ormiston 0

Stirling Uni 1 Kelty 7

Burntisland 0 Kelty 4

Eyemouth 0 Kelty 13

Kelty 7 Heriot Watt 1

To be continued…

And the East of Scotland set up is regarded as better than the South. Talbot were informed if they wanted to progress a club licence they would be plying their trade in the SOS league, a total mismatch and geographic misnomer. Yet these two divisions are considered technically higher than the top Junior level, no one could argue that and yet those that run our game have no inclination or any appetite to address this glaring anomaly, which is effectively stifling ambitious clubs and progress to move non league in Scotland to some kind of working model. . It is honestly like something out of Ripping Yarns!  

[drs]

I don't think anyone has been saying its a step up in terms of quality, its certainly a step up in the level of Scottish football they are playing at but not in terms of what's on the pitch.

[Cyclizine]

SFA are fixed on the idea that the EoSL & SoSL are the only feeders below the LL and I can't see a proposed West Senior league formed from current West Juniors either displacing the SoSL or being fitted in alongside it.
There's enough geographical overlap between East Juniors and EoSL for individual clubs to make  the move either way but, as has been said numerous times it's totally impractical for a West Junior club to apply to join the SoSL, and nearly as problematic to apply for the LL.
What though if most or all of next season's 16 West Premiership clubs made simultaneous coordinated applications either to the LL or to the SoSL and were accepted?
Vanishingly unlikely it would ever happen of course, but .....

I can't see the SFA wanting to create a West league on a par with the EoSFL and SoSFL, the geography and populations really don't justify it. I could possibly see a move to replace or rename the SoSFL. Realistically, if it's fairly universally agreed that the Juniors' East /West / North setup is the best way to split the nation up, then Dumfries & Galloway comes under the West Region, in the same way the Highlands and Moray comes under the North Region. As I said before, you can't just ignore a slightly inconvenient area of the country, where else would they fit in? With the scrapping of the District leagues next season, there's even less argument.

I understand the perception that the SoS is a 'step down' in quality from the Superleagues and I don't think many (including me!) would disagree, but this is the setup we currently have that is endorsed by the national governing body, there needs to be compromise from both sides.

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I can't see the SFA wanting to create a West league on a par with the EoSFL and SoSFL, the geography and populations really don't justify it.

Given we're talking about establishing a league which will cover the largest population base in Scotland, then I think there's every just justification for it!

The LL, IMO, should be split East and West, however a compromise is the establishment of a WoSFL to complement the EoSFL.  That covers 95% of the population base south of the Tay.  Those two plus the SoSFL could then play off to decide the two promotion slots to the LL.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Cyclizine]

Giving the boundary for teams going into Highland /Lowland league is the Tay , wouldn't that mean moving all the teams North of that river out of the East region and into North region?

Potentially, I guess, now that is another argument!

I'm in two minds about defined boundaries. On the one hand, teams know where they'll be playing season in, season out. The problem is when you start to get mismatches in team numbers, which is almost inevitable after a while and you get into Ayrshire/Central District unbalanced numbers.

Equally with flexible boundaries, you can easily balance numbers, but teams on the borders can find themselves flitting between divisions each season, like Fife clubs in the East Region. It may be there's some compromise solution.

I suppose the main issue at the moment is that there's no North of Scotland League below the HFL, so where would the teams go? Logically, the North Region setup does work, but that's again, another argument...

[Che Dail]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

What needs to happen now is an open debate, first amongst the Juniors. However we appear to have the usual suspects forming a working group to have the same old discussions amongst themselves and in the end decide it's pish.

Hope I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Clubs wishing for change should act now rather than waiting for the association to report on progress, otherwise there's a risk that the same conversation will be happening in a year's time and no further forward. 

Set something up Burnie Man...

[kefc]

Lowland League - 16 SFA Licenced Clubs. Automatic promotion to winner of HL/LL Play Off in place of bottom SPFL 2 club.

-3 x 16 Team Leagues below LL - East Of Scotland, West Of Scotland, South Of Scotland

-3 League Winners promoted, 3 from Lowland Relegated.

Junior Clubs who want to stay as is or may have trouble achieving Licence stay in Junior regional Setup or alternatively if everyone votes to be part of the pyramid then regional Junior Leagues feed into the EOS, WOS, SOS Leagues.

-National Non League Scottish Cup aswell as Scottish Junior Cup For Clubs outwith the EOS, WOS, SOS.

This change may be a route for the SFA’s Project Brave plan to be implemented fully with the introduction of B teams, Rangers Celtic into WOS League. I’m sure a trade off for allowing B teams in at non league would be automatic promotion from LL/HL.

A rough back of fag packet plan that would need loads of talking and planning probably in terms of Highland and South Of Scotland regions but its a start for discussion.

Edited October 27, 2017 by kefc

[parsforlife]

If we are going to add a 3rd tier 6 league are we not better going with South east, central and south west?

[Cyclizine]

-3 x 16 Team Leagues below - East Of Scotland, West Of Scotland, South Of Scotland

I think unless you're going to include maybe South/East Ayrshire +/- South Lanarkshire Clubs in South of Scotland, the population numbers don't match up. D&G only has population of 150,000 and you'd have it equivalent to a new league potentially covering at least 10 times that: that's why I think it makes more sense for SoSFL to to either cover the whole West or a new WoSFL to be formed encompassing any SoS clubs interested.

Arguably, three Lowland divisions does make sense population wise since only 1/4 of the population lives in the Highland catchment area, but perhaps a more equitable split would be:

West: D&G, Ayrshire, Inverclyde, Glasgow
Central: Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian
East: Other Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh, Fife
North: Perthshire, Angus/Dundee, Aberdeen City & Shire, Moray, Highlands.

Just thinking slightly outside the box... Just an example that would roughly split into equal catchment areas, could easily be fine tuned!

[kefc]

6 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

If we are going to add a 3rd tier 6 league are we not better going with South east, central and south west?

Probably more logical, yeah.

[Burnie_man]

IF a WoSFL was established then ideally you'd want it to absorb those SoSFL clubs who want to be part of it, and then let the SoSFL feed into it so it remains for those clubs who don't have the resource to go any further. It may also be a more achievable step to go SoSFL-WoSFL-LL. Going straight upto the LL is clearly an issue for almost all SoSFL clubs.

[Burnie_man]

Clubs wishing for change should act now rather than waiting for the association to report on progress, otherwise there's a risk that the same conversation will be happening in a year's time and no further forward. 
Set something up Burnie Man...

If only I had that much influence [emoji23]

[Cyclizine]

If we are going to add a 3rd tier 6 league are we not better going with South east, central and south west?

Need a North League too. As someone grown up with Highland League football, the absence of any realistic mechanism for other north teams to progress is a disgrace.

[parsforlife]

I think unless you're going to include maybe South/East Ayrshire +/- South Lanarkshire Clubs in South of Scotland, the population numbers don't match up. D&G only has population of 150,000 and you'd have it equivalent to a new league potentially covering at least 10 times that: that's why I think it makes more sense for SoSFL to to either cover the whole West or a new WoSFL to be formed encompassing any SoS clubs interested.

Arguably, three Lowland divisions does make sense population wise since only 1/4 of the population lives in the Highland catchment area, but perhaps a more equitable split would be:

West: D&G, Ayrshire, Inverclyde, Glasgow
Central: Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian
East: Other Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh, Fife
North: Perthshire, Angus/Dundee, Aberdeen City & Shire, Moray, Highlands.

Just thinking slightly outside the box... Just an example that would roughly split into equal catchment areas, could easily be fine tuned!

My south-west league certainly would take in a large chunks of Ayrshire and possibly other areas as well. Whilst I can understand the moans of west region clubs about the quality of SOS opposition the attitude towards traveling are laughable, it really isn't unreasonable to be expected to travel down the coast.

I agree 3 leagues at tier 5 would be better, but I'd be very reluctant to have any more than 3 leagues feeding into 1 at any level. Mainly as it means too big of geographical jump for promoted teams but it also as it makes promotion either very difficult to achieve or relegation spots taking up a large % of the higher league.

[Burnie_man]

A WoSFL League could potentially look like this, effectively a West Superleague with SoSFL licenced clubs tagged on and Glasgow Uni (they could be told to join or lose their Licence)

St.Cuthberts W

Threave R

Newton Stewart

Glasgow Uni

Beith

Kilbirnie L

Kilwinning R

Auchinleck T

Pollok

Kirkintilloch RR

Glenafton Ath

Hurlford Utd

Girvan

Arthurlie

Clydebank

Cumnock

The important part is what happens at the bottom, well you’d keep the new West Region structure as is and feed into it (two/three, up/down) so nothing much changes for most Junior clubs, they carry on as before.  The remaining SoSFL clubs are given the choice to either join the Junior structure at an appropriate level or carry on as a separate league with the chance of direct promotion to the new WoSFL.  Champs to be promoted along with EoSFL Champs to LL.  If the Champs in either league are not licenced, then it falls to the second or third placed club to take up that opportunity.

For the East of Scotland League, there are currently three vacancies to make the number up to 16, open this up to 3 Junior clubs.  Also, allow any existing members of the EoSFL to instead join the current Junior structure at an appropriate level if they wish to do so (similar to Craigroyston and Easthouses), otherwise it would be two/three, up/down with the existing East Superleague.

This would provide a relatively pain-free introduction to the Pyramid for Junior clubs, nothing much would change for the vast majority, but those at the top level can progress and go down the road of becoming Licenced. WoSFL, EoSFL and HL clubs enter the Junior Cup as the national non-league competition.

In 5 years from the start, you’d find the LL with a healthy contingent of former Junior clubs, and the weaker LL, EoSFL, SoSFL clubs would find their own level at some point within the wider (former) Junior structure, but retain their SFA Cup spot, and enjoy entering a national non-league comp.

Thoughts?

[Che Dail]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

For the East of Scotland League, there are currently three vacancies to make the number up to 16, open this up to 3 Junior clubs.  Also, allow any existing members of the EoSFL to instead join the current Junior structure at an appropriate level if they wish to do so (similar to Craigroyston and Easthouses), otherwise it would be two/three, up/down with the existing East Superleague.

This would provide a relatively pain-free introduction to the Pyramid for Junior clubs, nothing much would change for the vast majority, but those at the top level can progress and go down the road of becoming Licenced. WoSFL, EoSFL and HL clubs enter the Junior Cup as the national non-league competition.

In 5 years from the start, you’d find the LL with a healthy contingent of former Junior clubs, and the weaker LL, EoSFL, SoSFL clubs would find their own level at some point within the wider (former) Junior structure, but retain their SFA Cup spot, and enjoy entering a national non-league comp.

Thoughts?

Trying to solve the puzzle for the whole of the Junior grade is too much of an undertaking in one sitting, so my thoughts are that clubs from each Region should focus on what changes they can influence, and where their knowledge and experience lies.  i.e East clubs aren't going to resolve the West or North region dilemma.

So as a starting point using Cyclizine's format for the East comprising:  Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh, Fife, you'd have 39 Junior clubs from which to form 2 EoS leagues of 12 (Premier and First?). 

There are 14 EoS clubs as things stand (including Duns, who are planning to return next year).  So to form 2 divisions, you'd require only 9 more (in addition to your own) to make that format work. 

That's one season of pretty much local derbies, before 2 go up and 2 down thereafter.  And presumably if that 9 includes 2 or 3 SL clubs, others will follow.  Pick 9 clubs and form a EoS 2nd Division. 

Another 4 on top of that and there's 2 leagues of 14.

WEST & CENTRAL: 15 Linlithgow Rose   Broxburn Athletic   Camelon Juniors   Boness United   Sauchie Juniors     Fauldhouse United   Blackburn United   Bathgate Thistle   Whitburn Juniors   Pumpherston Juniors   West Calder United   Armadale Thistle   Livingston United   Stoneyburn Juniors

MID & EAST: 12 Penicuik Athletic   Bonnyrigg Rose   Newtongrange Star     Musselburgh Athletic   Haddington Athletic   Tranent Juniors   Dalkeith Thistle   Dunbar United   Arniston Rangers   Edinburgh United   Craigroyston Easthouses Lily MW

FIFE: 12 Dundonald Bluebell   Hill of Beath Hawthorn   Kennoway Star Hearts     Tayport St Andrews Glenrothes Thornton Hibs      Rosyth Lochgelly Albert   Crossgates Primrose   Oakley United   Kirkcaldy YM

Looking ahead from Blackburn's point of view since that's your club - for the sake of argument - if you take the clubs who have reportedly shown interest in the Pyramid out of the SL, along with Kelty who have already gone, what is the attraction in working towards promotion to the Super League and staying in this grade?

The Junior Cup? 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Che Dail

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Trying to solve the puzzle for the whole of the Junior grade is too much of an undertaking in one sitting, so my thoughts are that clubs from each Region should focus on what changes they can influence, and where their knowledge and experience lies.  i.e East clubs aren't going to resolve the West or North region dilemma.

So as a starting point using Cyclizine's format for the East comprising:  Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh, Fife, you'd have 39 Junior clubs from which to form 2 EoS leagues of 12 (Premier and First?). 

There are 14 EoS clubs as things stand (including Duns, who are planning to return next year).  So to form 2 divisions, you'd require only 9 more (in addition to your own) to make that format work. 

That's one season of pretty much local derbies, before 2 go up and 2 down thereafter.  And presumably if that 9 includes 2 or 3 SL clubs, others will follow.  Pick 9 clubs and form a EoS 2nd Division. 

Another 4 on top of that and there's 2 leagues of 14.

WEST & CENTRAL: 15 Linlithgow Rose   Broxburn Athletic   Camelon Juniors   Boness United   Sauchie Juniors     Fauldhouse United   Blackburn United   Bathgate Thistle   Whitburn Juniors   Pumpherston Juniors   West Calder United   Armadale Thistle   Livingston United   Stoneyburn Juniors

MID & EAST: 12 Penicuik Athletic   Bonnyrigg Rose   Newtongrange Star     Musselburgh Athletic   Haddington Athletic   Tranent Juniors   Dalkeith Thistle   Dunbar United   Arniston Rangers   Edinburgh United   Craigroyston Easthouses Lily MW

FIFE: 12 Dundonald Bluebell   Hill of Beath Hawthorn   Kennoway Star Hearts     Tayport St Andrews Glenrothes Thornton Hibs      Rosyth Lochgelly Albert   Crossgates Primrose   Oakley United   Kirkcaldy YM

Looking ahead from Blackburn's point of view since that's your club - for the sake of argument - if you take the clubs who have reportedly shown interest in the Pyramid out of the SL, along with Kelty who have already gone, what is the attraction in working towards promotion to the Super League and staying in this grade?

The Junior Cup? 

 

Thaqts 38 clubs their is only 14 in your west central league

[Village elder]

I have failed to read this thread in it's entirety....I have another life.Have a look at the system down south .Despite all of the many thought provoking interesting and challenging ideas being put forward the whole system eventually falls on its arse at some junction when we discover that teams do not always get relegated geographically and are then shoehorned into the next best fit 

[kefc]

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

A WoSFL League could potentially look like this, effectively a West Superleague with SoSFL licenced clubs tagged on and Glasgow Uni (they could be told to join or lose their Licence)

St.Cuthberts W

Threave R

Newton Stewart

Glasgow Uni

Beith

Kilbirnie L

Kilwinning R

Auchinleck T

Pollok

Kirkintilloch RR

Glenafton Ath

Hurlford Utd

Girvan

Arthurlie

Clydebank

Cumnock

The important part is what happens at the bottom, well you’d keep the new West Region structure as is and feed into it (two/three, up/down) so nothing much changes for most Junior clubs, they carry on as before.  The remaining SoSFL clubs are given the choice to either join the Junior structure at an appropriate level or carry on as a separate league with the chance of direct promotion to the new WoSFL.  Champs to be promoted along with EoSFL Champs to LL.  If the Champs in either league are not licenced, then it falls to the second or third placed club to take up that opportunity.

For the East of Scotland League, there are currently three vacancies to make the number up to 16, open this up to 3 Junior clubs.  Also, allow any existing members of the EoSFL to instead join the current Junior structure at an appropriate level if they wish to do so (similar to Craigroyston and Easthouses), otherwise it would be two/three, up/down with the existing East Superleague.

This would provide a relatively pain-free introduction to the Pyramid for Junior clubs, nothing much would change for the vast majority, but those at the top level can progress and go down the road of becoming Licenced. WoSFL, EoSFL and HL clubs enter the Junior Cup as the national non-league competition.

In 5 years from the start, you’d find the LL with a healthy contingent of former Junior clubs, and the weaker LL, EoSFL, SoSFL clubs would find their own level at some point within the wider (former) Junior structure, but retain their SFA Cup spot, and enjoy entering a national non-league comp.

Thoughts?

This setup needs to be discussed and promoted ASAP for the greater good, a new exciting non league setup  in Scottish football can revitalise so many communities all around the country and possibly egnite a real interest again from the bottom of the game in Scotland which should carry through right to the top. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by kefc