Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Somebody on the LL thread said they saw Edinburgh City last week and the crowd was about 35 people.

Care to explain?

Probably missed a zero off.

[Glenconner]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

Probably missed a zero off.

Or it Edinburgh University.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, The Mantis said:

I wonder if people are happy just paying what they’re used to. At an ICT match I never even think about the admission price, but occasionally I go with my mate who supports Liverpool and I can’t imagine paying £50 other than an occasional treat. But you do hear the price thing raised all the time by Juniors fans.

It could be.  Both Edinburgh City and Annan Athletic have massively increased their average since moving to League Two and doubling of admission, so maybe a few old regulars will walk away, but they are more then replaced by "new" fans who are happy to pay to watch that level of football.  Just like those football fans who wouldn't watch non-league even if it was free.

[The Mantis]

1 minute ago, Glenconner said:

Or it Edinburgh University.

Aye I think that was it.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Glenconner said:

Or it Edinburgh University.

  almost the same

[Sergeant Wilson]

24 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

If you read it again, I never actually said that. But nevertheless I wouldn’t compare Lithgae to a SPFL1 side, even in light of their cup run last season or Hearts v Talbot.

I supported Caley and they had a better Cup record than either of them, but Caley Thistle struggled in their first season in the leagues, even after strengthening the squad. There’s a massive difference between getting yourself up for a Cup game which probably means little to the opposition, and playing 36 games in the league.

I get the principle. I don't see the value for money.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think its that bizarre. Once you go into the SPFL the change is more dramatic. You lose the variety of opponents by playing the same 9 clubs 4 times a year. You're also having to spending more money on ancillaries and time travelling. Then there's the fact that a Superleague or Lowland League club have a realistic shot at a trophy every year through the different cup competitions they compete in. Its a different experience with no great reward.

Nearly everyone seems to accept that the quality of the Lowland has grown year on year, and a strengthened EoS will add to its quality. The HFL has also been improved by the 5 ex-Junior clubs which have joined its ranks - just look at the successes of 4 HFL clubs in this season's Scottish Cup. 

However, if the SFA is serious about wanting the pyramid to flourish, it needs to act in conjunction with the SPFL, and grant AUTOMATIC promotion and relegation between tiers 4 and 5. English football granted automatic entry to the EFL  from the 'conference' in 1986/87 (with 1 team being automatically relegated, later increased to 2 clubs each season).  

In the not too distant future, SPFL Division 2 should be regionalised, given the part-time nature of its clubs, and ever escalating travel costs. However this is NOTthe time to do this, as change will be by EVOLUTION, carefully thought through, and supported (as far as possible) by both league and non-league clubs.

It is interesting to note that the first 6 clubs who were relegated out of the EFL, were all subsequently promoted back, albeit not usually in their first season in the 'conference'. These were in the order of relegation, Lincoln, Newport, Darlington*, Colchester, Hereford* & Doncaster. (*Two of these were later relegated a second time. The other 4 are still in the EFL).  During the period since automatic promotion and relegation, the English pyramid has gone from strength to strength, and EFL Division 2 is very competitive, having become much more vibrant as a consequence of the 'new blood' in its ranks.

If the nettle is fully grasped, it will be the same for Scottish football.

 

[Glenconner]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It could be.  Both Edinburgh City and Annan Athletic have massively increased their average since moving to League Two and doubling of admission, so maybe a few old regulars will walk away, but they are more then replaced by "new" fans who are happy to pay to watch that level of football.  Just like those football fans who wouldn't watch non-league even if it was free.

Certainly be interesting to see in my local area, Greater Glasgow. Clydebank in another life obviously got better crowds in the Premier League than the present day Juniors. Although that would be a massive jump in today's terms and five years hard slog in one go. A team from Govan failed to do it in one go and they'd 50,000 paying customers behind them. Time will tell.

[The Mantis]

23 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I get the principle. I don't see the value for money.

Aye, you seem to be saying that, at any particular price point, the English match will always be of a higher standard. I’d broadly agree although I’ve seen a few Northern League games at £6 where I did wonder.

The flip side of Gordon’s argument is that you don’t have go far below Linlithgow before you start thinking that even £5 or £6 is too much 

Edited April 1, 2018 by The Mantis

[cowdenbeath]

16 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Nearly everyone seems to accept that the quality of the Lowland has grown year on year, and a strengthened EoS will add to its quality. The HFL has also been improved by the 5 ex-Junior clubs which have joined its ranks - just look at the successes of 4 HFL clubs in this season's Scottish Cup. 

However, if the SFA is serious about wanting the pyramid to flourish, it needs to act in conjunction with the SPFL, and grant AUTOMATIC promotion and relegation between tiers 4 and 5. English football granted automatic entry to the EFL  from the 'conference' in 1986/87 (with 1 team being automatically relegated, later increased to 2 clubs each season).  

In the not too distant future, SPFL Division 2 should be regionalised, given the part-time nature of its clubs, and ever escalating travel costs. However this is NOTthe time to do this, as change will be by EVOLUTION, carefully thought through, and supported (as far as possible) by both league and non-league clubs.

It is interesting to note that the first 6 clubs who were relegated out of the EFL, were all subsequently promoted back, albeit not usually in their first season in the 'conference'. These were in the order of relegation, Lincoln, Newport, Darlington*, Colchester, Hereford* & Doncaster. (*Two of these were later relegated a second time. The other 4 are still in the EFL).  During the period since automatic promotion and relegation, the English pyramid has gone from strength to strength, and EFL Division 2 is very competitive, having become much more vibrant as a consequence of the 'new blood' in its ranks.

If the nettle is fully grasped, it will be the same for Scottish football.

 

Back in the early days after automatic relegation in 87 the relegated clubs were still full time while the others were part time so it was "easier" for them to get back up quite a few at the 1st go. As the years have gone on most are now full time sides with only a few part time making it harder for ex EFL sides to get back up quickly.

[Burnie_man]

Have a swatch at this, clearly written by someone who has no understanding of why this is happening

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, The Mantis said:

Aye, you seem to be saying that, at any particular price point, the English match will always be of a higher standard. I’d broadly agree although I’ve seen a few Northern League games at £6 where I did wonder.

I am biased, I admit that. After 30 odd years of watching, then working in SFL football, I just can't bear the thought of having to undergo the experience of sitting in a flat pack multi thousand capacity stadium, being treated with contempt and any number of other negatives.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Certainly be interesting to see in my local area, Greater Glasgow. Clydebank in another life obviously got better crowds in the Premier League than the present day Juniors. Although that would be a massive jump in today's terms and five years hard slog in one go. A team from Govan failed to do it in one go and they'd 50,000 paying customers behind them. Time will tell.

As I said earlier, there are plenty out there who wouldn't open their curtains to watch non-league fitba, but will happily cough up the money to watch League football.  There's more of them out there than the ones who think the opposite.  Also, in the next decade, League Two will be unrecognisable from what it is now, there will be more Edinburgh City's and Annan's in the League, and more East Stirlingshire's in the HL/LL.  People need to stop looking at this short term.

[Kilbowie Benches]

Given that most Junior committees are made up of people in their 70s,is it any wonder that they only think in the short term!!

[Glenconner]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Have a swatch at this, clearly written by someone who has no understanding of why this is happening

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

He was correct about the golf clubs and the craft, brother.

[Truthteller]

So if 6  or even more teams leave the superleague how will that affect the other leagues ?

[FairWeatherFan]

55 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's bizarre in the fact that you want to see your team play in the best non-league division south of the Tay in a Pyramid, but you still want to bang your head off a glass ceiling.

I'd equate to those people happy competing in the Premiership with Celtic & Rangers in a English/Euro League. They like the idea because there will be more chance of winning things and seeing a successful team on the park week to week.

For some clubs they aren't banging their heads against a glass ceiling. They're Super Mario banging their head in to a block and getting a gold coin or power up for their trouble.

[Robert James]

12 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

Back in the early days after automatic relegation in 87 the relegated clubs were still full time while the others were part time so it was "easier" for them to get back up quite a few at the 1st go. As the years have gone on most are now full time sides with only a few part time making it harder for ex EFL sides to get back up quickly.

Yes it has become more competitive in England (which is surely good) and may be marginally "harder for ex-EFL sides to get back up quickly" now, but this isn't the case in Scotland where both lower level SPFL and leading non-league clubs, are part-time. The reality is that clubs will find their own level within any football 'pyramid', and Scottish ex-league clubs should have the opportunity of automatic promotion to get back into the SPFL.

[Ross.]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Have a swatch at this, clearly written by someone who has no understanding of why this is happening

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/junior-football-scotland-ruin-senior-leagues?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Reads like the views of someone who hasn’t watched a junior game since that Talbot v Cumnock match 20 years ago. The game at this level now is nothing like the game at this level was 10 years back never mind 20. You get the odd spot of mental-ness now but by and large that reputation is no longer deserved.

[Sergeant Wilson]

In case anyone has forgotten. Spiers is a complete cùnt.