Junior football, what is the future?

[cmontheloknow]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

An excellent comment;

Damon Main

2d ago

 

0 1

My understanding is that the attempts to assimilate Juniors into the pyramid has been pretty done poorly and unprofessionally.

An email was issued out to all clubs with Q's - would you be interested? It is so half hearted its incredible. Those that run Junior football dont want to change - but ambitious clubs want to progress because Scottish football and Scottish clubs want to progress.

- They want to improve skills
- They want to involve ladies football and girls in the community
- They want to put down 3G pitches and get local girls and boys playing in an inclusive way.

For the above three points see Kelty Hearts, see Blackburn United. Progressive football clubs who have left or are LEAVING the Juniors.

This Questionnaire has came in response to threats of certain clubs to 'withdraw' from the Junior set up and indeed clubs who have left or are leaving.

Kelty Hearts - Left Juniors for EoSFL
Dalkieth - Joining EoSFL
Blackburn United - Leaving for EoSFL

Other clubs as far as I am aware will be following suit.

As noted, one of the reasons these clubs are withdrawing from Juniors is that unfortunatly Junior football is full of rigid dinosaur clubs who play football in crumbling grounds, and the system is packed for of too many teams.

The clubs are traditional but rigid, closed shop and run by committees that are outdated. Granted they have local rivals, traditional old season by season local rivals but theat only takes clubs so far.

What about those in the community looking in wanting to play but cant because the club is all about just 11 guys kicking a ball about come Saturday?

Why should Kelty Hearts, Blackburn United (who have excellent grounds, excellent facilities, community clubs, female teams, youth teams, U20 teams) be restricted by the dinosaurs who run Junior football and its rigid traditional set up?

As far as I can see there is no U20 league for Junior clubs (if there is I have never seen a game in this league)? No female teams? No girls teams? In contrast would the SPFL league set up (the pyrimad system) would that allow wider community involvement for Junior Clubs?

Would it allow lads to play in an U20 league like the EoSFL - yes it would.

Junior clubs like Auchinleck Talbot have rich traditions. Its a good ground that puts the grounds of Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers to shame. Same at Blackburn United and Linlithgow Rose.

But wallowing in centiry old nostaligia is wrong attitude.

I fear for Junior clubs if they all assimilate and I am concerned that those involved are not getting around a table as they should be. Instead its all half hearted questionnaires, pointless press releases and articles like this.

Junior clubs (the big clubs), the SPFL, SFA, EoSFL, South of Scotland League, Highland League ALL need to get around a table ASAP. Forget the kak handed emails asking opinion, forget the negative tradition. Get the big clubs i.e. those that want to progress involved in the league set up. We know who these clubs are:

Linlithgow Rose
Bonnyrigg Rose
Banks o Dee
Auchinleck Talbot
Cumnock Juniors
Glenafton
Blackburn United

These clubs could and should be part of the EoSFL, or the South Scotland league or the Highland League.

What can Banks o Dee achieve in Juniors? Games against Dyce Juniors??? What could they acheive in the Highland League? Quite a lot potentially.

The traditions of the Juniors has to go on. The Junior set up can continue as there are clubs in it that are more or less amatuers with public park set ups. They are no more league pyramid clubs than a bloke down the park kicking a ball about with his mates.

But there are clubs in the Juniors now who are better clubs, have better set ups, have more fans, richer histories and far more potential than many of the clubs in the SPFL.

Kelty Hearts for example are a much better club than Cowdenbeath. That is obvious.

So, all these clubs. Forget the tradition, forget the nostaligia, embrace new opportunities for the first time in over 100+ years.

Sort ot out before its another 50+ years before Scotland qualifies for another tournament. At least do it for the next player (boy or girl) who has some sort of dream.

Nae offence to the guy but when he comes to the club list at the end, I cannot help but think of the 'Oxford, Cambridge, Hull' line from Blackadder. At least 3 of those have not got much interest at all in going beyond their current boundaries!

Edited April 5, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Really hope you're right Jamie but I have a feeling that the SFA will take the side of an already existing association over a brand new one although anyone with any brains should see that the top West juniors should sit above the SOSL.

Time will tell

They're geographically different areas though and I am almost certain the majority of members of both organisations wouldn't fancy regular travel to the other (a few times a season is not the same as every 2nd week). Threave Rovers' failure to twice maintain semi-national travel (they withdrew from the East of Scotland League to return to the South of Scotland League and then were subsequently relegated out the Lowland League as the bottom of the table side in season 3 after 2nd bottom and bottom finishes before) shines a light on what the others could and could not do. Ok, time could balance things out but the first few years would be hellish for all concerned, especially those with lesser budgets.

Just imagine (and this is simply a split of South top 6 and West top 8 (as is) + Glasgow Univ. and Wigtown to give a prospective 16 (and the split could be 50/50, 40/60, 70/30 in either direction of course).

Auchinleck Talbot
Beith
Bonnyton Thistle
Cumnock
Glasgow University
Glenafton Athletic
Heston Rovers
Kilbirnie Ladeside
Kilwinning Rangers
Kirkintilloch Rob Roy
Lochar Thistle
Mid Annandale
Pollok
St. Cuthbert Wanderers
Threave Rovers
Wigtown & Bladnoch

For clarity I believe the above mix to be unappealing to all concerned.

Edited April 5, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Nae offence to the guy but when he comes to the club list at the end, I cannot help but think of the 'Oxford, Cambridge, Hull' line from Blackadder.

Hull City got to the Premiership you know.......

Edited April 5, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Che Dail]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Nae offence to the guy but when he comes to the club list at the end, I cannot help but think of the 'Oxford, Cambridge, Hull' line from Blackadder.

Haha, true - not a very accurate list!

[1320Lichtie]

On the subject of poor senior grounds and clubs who seem to have no intent on improving their facilities as they know they have had a safe and secure presence in the seniors here is a blog written by our winger Danny Denholm, touches on non league clubs. Not entirely relevant to the subject but it is worth posting on here and a good read imo.....


In the week that the mighty Sir Alex has stated that the Scotland National Team relocating from Hampden would destroy our “fantastic history”, I was able to visit one of our historic lower league grounds – Cliftonhill. On the Hampden debate, Sir Alex clearly hasn’t had to board 4 different trains and a mile hike before sitting in seats where action at the opposite goal mouth is merely a guessing game… I digress; I would like to discuss our football traditions at lower league starting with my Cliftonhill experience.

Traditions run deep down the footballing pyramid and being an average part time footballer, I have had the pleasure of sampling these traditions first hand. I have had the fortune of visiting Albion Rovers on numerous occasions and I will never forget my first visit. I got out my car in the dark deep dwellings of Coatbridge. I then skilfully managed to manoeuvre around the Coatbridge Young Team who were giving me pelters. Despite being a foot smaller than me, I didn’t fancy my chances – A famous Scottish manager once told me that those from the West coast will take the “tawties aff yer plate”. As a posh boy from Edinburgh – these lads would have smelt my fear.

I entered the wonderful Cliftonhill Arena and marched straight for the toilet facilities. I flew through the door of the dressing room (no bigger than the size of my nans bathroom) straight to the single cubicle where I was faced with what can only be described as a giant shi… number 2. I was beyond the stage where I could make a reasonable decision and when you’ve got to go, well, you’ve got to go. To my horror, I take a look to my left and there’s an empty tube staring right back at me. I had to find out the hard way that Tuba grip is way less durable than your standard Andrex products.

Once this problem was resolved we managed to get changed into our kit despite there being only enough space for a power league outfit. You venture up the strangely carpeted stairs in single file while Deirdre the tea lady elbows her way past you in the opposite direction. You then get your first smell of the Cliftonhill atmosphere, where I was greeted with grass as long as Christian Daily’s studs. After 90 minutes of head tennis, we escaped with a 1-1 draw thanks to a goal scored by Kerr Hay – a man so small he was able to sneak up on the Albion goal through the wades of long grass.

At full time, I was glad to fight my way past Mark “beaky” Baxter and Iain “Yano” Campbell (both better footballers than me but both on the Rick Waller eating plan) to the shower where I was able to enjoy a lukewarm drip with less power than a chicken Korma. Still caked in mud and heavily traumatised, I managed to escape alive. This time.

What I have really been trying to say – in a rambling roundabout manner is – tradition and history are not always a good thing. Why should a club retain its place in the football league when its facilities are horrendously poor. I know I have singled out Albion Rovers, and although one of the worst offenders, there are several other places whose facilities fall way short of where they should be. You only need to look at your teammates faces on the last training session before a trip to Cowdenbeath or Berwick – a mix of sadness, dread and despair are prevalent.

These clubs rest on their laurels and hide behind their historic place knowing that they won’t have to invest in their facilities. While lower down the footballing pyramid, you have ambitious community clubs who have invested heavily in their facilities. Spartans, East Kilbride and certain teams in the Highland leagues have progressive ideas and facilities that would be a benefit to the professional game.

Now I know this is a simplistic view and that these old clubs have a massive role in their community. However these facilities are contributing to the already poor level of football by making it even poorer. They need to stop resting on “tradition” and “history” and put some changes into place. If the tradition is crap for all concerned – change the tradition. That sentiment also echoes my thoughts on the national stadium situation.

[cmontheloknow]

I trust Danny Denholm now carries a supply of shitroll with him in his kitbag? Be prepared, as any good boyscout should be!

[BoomShakalaka]

On 04/04/2018 at 12:46, Burnie_man said:

What is culturally different between say Bonnyrigg Rose and Whitehill Welfare?  or Preston Athletic and Musselburgh Athletic?

Does Rosewell have electricity yet?

[Ivo den Bieman]

34 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

They're geographically different areas though and I am almost certain the majority of members of both organisations wouldn't fancy regular travel to the other (a few times a season is not the same as every 2nd week). Threave Rovers' failure to twice maintain semi-national travel (they withdrew from the East of Scotland League to return to the South of Scotland League and then were subsequently relegated out the Lowland League as the bottom of the table side in season 3 after 2nd bottom and bottom finishes before) shines a light on what the others could and could not do. Ok, time could balance things out but the first few years would be hellish for all concerned, especially those with lesser budgets.

Just imagine (and this is simply a split of South top 6 and West top 8 (as is) + Glasgow Univ. and Wigtown to give a prospective 16 (and the split could be 50/50, 40/60, 70/30 in either direction of course).

Auchinleck Talbot
Beith
Bonnyton Thistle
Cumnock
Glasgow University
Glenafton Athletic
Heston Rovers
Kilbirnie Ladeside
Kilwinning Rangers
Kirkintilloch Rob Roy
Lochar Thistle
Mid Annandale
Pollok
St. Cuthbert Wanderers
Threave Rovers
Wigtown & Bladnoch

 

BIT WHY SHOULD SOUTH OF SCOTLAND LEAGUE CLUBS TAKE PART IN A LEAGUE PYRAMID SYSTEM THAT WOULD FINANCIALLY DESTROY THERE CLUBS OWING TO TRAVEL COSTS N THAT N NANE OF OUR PLAYERS WILL RE-SIGN IF THEY HUV TO TRAVEL TAE GLASGOW TWICE A SEASON, THEY'LL SIGN FIR STINLAR AMATEURS INSTEAD SO'S THEY CAN BE HOME IN TIME FOR THIR TEA  

(is what you get from almost every follower of SoSFL). Threave and Bonnyton seem to be the only clubs in the league actually interested in progression. Mids seem to be having a good season but not sure if they have the infrastructure to take promotion at present. Previous champions have jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion. Would suggest clubs like Arthurlie, Clydebank and Largs should be in your suggested league ahead of some of the current SoSFL sides mentioned. Girvan as a member of the SFA would surely automatically be invited as well.

The hostility of most SoS clubs to actually following through on the implications of a title win means I agree more with your original suggestion at the top of the page that they drop to Tier 7. Hard to see how anyone could reasonably present a league chock full of the best junior clubs from the West plus already-licensed SFA clubs as inferior to a league full of clubs that don't actually seem to want to progress beyond the level they are already at. I am not sure too many SoSFL clubs would be bothered at "dropping" a tier if it meant that the vast majority who don't want to / can't for money / other infrastructure reasons progress, were left alone to get on with it.

At worst a newly formed WoSFL should be parallel at level 6 to a SoSFL. Anything else would frankly be farcical. So probably the SFA will put them in at level 7 for the inaugural season.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Ivo den Bieman

[cmontheloknow]

4 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

BIT WHY SHOULD SOUTH OF SCOTLAND LEAGUE CLUBS TAKE PART IN A LEAGUE PYRAMID SYSTEM THAT WOULD FINANCIALLY DESTROY THERE CLUBS OWING TO TRAVEL COSTS N THAT N NANE OF OUR PLAYERS WILL RE-SIGN IF THEY HUV TO TRAVEL TAE GLASGOW TWICE A SEASON, THEY'LL SIGN FIR STINLAR AMATEURS INSTEAD SO'S THEY CAN BE HOME IN TIME FOR THIR TEA  

(is what you get from almost every follower of SoSFL). Threave and Bonnyton seem to be the only clubs in the league actually interested in progression. Mids seem to be having a good season but not sure if they have the infrastructure to take promotion at present. Previous champions have jockeyed paperwork to avoid promotion. Would suggest clubs like Arthurlie, Clydebank and Largs should be in your suggested league ahead of some of the current SoSFL sides mentioned.

The hostility of most SoS clubs to actually following through on the implications of a title win means I agree more with your original suggestion at the top of the page that they drop to Tier 7. Hard to see how anyone could reasonably present a league chock full of the best junior clubs from the West plus already-licensed SFA clubs as inferior to a league full of clubs that don't actually seem to want to progress beyond the level they are already at. I am not sure too many SoSFL clubs would be bothered at "dropping" a tier if it meant that the vast majority who don't want to / can't for money / other infrastructure reasons progress, were left alone to get on with it.

At worst a newly formed WoSFL should be parallel at level 6 to a SoSFL. Anything else would frankly be farcical. So probably the SFA will put them in at level 7 for the inaugural season.

 

 

Yeah, for clarity I do think the list I gave is intentially horrendous, but it was a split with slight bias towards the Juniors, only including 6 active South clubs. I do think the more likely scenario is an all-encompassing WoS which invites the SoS sides interested and bumps the rest to at least Tier 7. Their natural fit would be as a district feeding a West-wide 2nd tier. i.e. like Ayrshire and Central just now, but of course West Juniors are ditching this for next season!

Edited April 5, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Ivo den Bieman]

(ps, I wonder if the various 3rd Lanark revivalists will put in a cheeky application to the new WoSFL?)

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, gogsy said:

This link has been posted twice already, and has been ridiculed by  sensible posters on here, try getting some fresh material.

Thepublished article was dated 1st April, @ 6.00 am. April Fool !

[Glenconner]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

An excellent comment;

Damon Main

2d ago

 

0 1

My understanding is that the attempts to assimilate Juniors into the pyramid has been pretty done poorly and unprofessionally.

An email was issued out to all clubs with Q's - would you be interested? It is so half hearted its incredible. Those that run Junior football dont want to change - but ambitious clubs want to progress because Scottish football and Scottish clubs want to progress.

- They want to improve skills
- They want to involve ladies football and girls in the community
- They want to put down 3G pitches and get local girls and boys playing in an inclusive way.

For the above three points see Kelty Hearts, see Blackburn United. Progressive football clubs who have left or are LEAVING the Juniors.

This Questionnaire has came in response to threats of certain clubs to 'withdraw' from the Junior set up and indeed clubs who have left or are leaving.

Kelty Hearts - Left Juniors for EoSFL
Dalkieth - Joining EoSFL
Blackburn United - Leaving for EoSFL

Other clubs as far as I am aware will be following suit.

As noted, one of the reasons these clubs are withdrawing from Juniors is that unfortunatly Junior football is full of rigid dinosaur clubs who play football in crumbling grounds, and the system is packed for of too many teams.

The clubs are traditional but rigid, closed shop and run by committees that are outdated. Granted they have local rivals, traditional old season by season local rivals but theat only takes clubs so far.

What about those in the community looking in wanting to play but cant because the club is all about just 11 guys kicking a ball about come Saturday?

Why should Kelty Hearts, Blackburn United (who have excellent grounds, excellent facilities, community clubs, female teams, youth teams, U20 teams) be restricted by the dinosaurs who run Junior football and its rigid traditional set up?

As far as I can see there is no U20 league for Junior clubs (if there is I have never seen a game in this league)? No female teams? No girls teams? In contrast would the SPFL league set up (the pyrimad system) would that allow wider community involvement for Junior Clubs?

Would it allow lads to play in an U20 league like the EoSFL - yes it would.

Junior clubs like Auchinleck Talbot have rich traditions. Its a good ground that puts the grounds of Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers to shame. Same at Blackburn United and Linlithgow Rose.

But wallowing in centiry old nostaligia is wrong attitude.

I fear for Junior clubs if they all assimilate and I am concerned that those involved are not getting around a table as they should be. Instead its all half hearted questionnaires, pointless press releases and articles like this.

Junior clubs (the big clubs), the SPFL, SFA, EoSFL, South of Scotland League, Highland League ALL need to get around a table ASAP. Forget the kak handed emails asking opinion, forget the negative tradition. Get the big clubs i.e. those that want to progress involved in the league set up. We know who these clubs are:

Linlithgow Rose
Bonnyrigg Rose
Banks o Dee
Auchinleck Talbot
Cumnock Juniors
Glenafton
Blackburn United

These clubs could and should be part of the EoSFL, or the South Scotland league or the Highland League.

What can Banks o Dee achieve in Juniors? Games against Dyce Juniors??? What could they acheive in the Highland League? Quite a lot potentially.

The traditions of the Juniors has to go on. The Junior set up can continue as there are clubs in it that are more or less amatuers with public park set ups. They are no more league pyramid clubs than a bloke down the park kicking a ball about with his mates.

But there are clubs in the Juniors now who are better clubs, have better set ups, have more fans, richer histories and far more potential than many of the clubs in the SPFL.

Kelty Hearts for example are a much better club than Cowdenbeath. That is obvious.

So, all these clubs. Forget the tradition, forget the nostaligia, embrace new opportunities for the first time in over 100+ years.

Sort ot out before its another 50+ years before Scotland qualifies for another tournament. At least do it for the next player (boy or girl) who has some sort of dream.

Nae mention of Wishaw who are in the Scottish Junior Cup semi final and some of the big Junior clubs ain't 

[Ardenvohr6]

My thoughts:
The imbalance between the West and East in the Lowland League is a huge problem. The West’s top clubs being required to join at Tier 6 leaving E.K and Cumbernauld above them as the best in the west (leaving out the Alloa based team BSC Glasgow meantime) will be unacceptable to most, if not all of the junior teams. Furthermore, integrating EOSL and East Region is going to cause an almighty stushie.
It’s going to take an arbitrator with the authority to work out a solution and impose it. Probably a committee of the SFA, but that is complicated by the current lack of executive officers.
No doubt a nearly impossible task, but it will have to be a system of merging all the separate leagues into a regionally based set up. Even that will be complicated by those who have served notice of jumping to the EOSL next season.
If it had been last April, I’d have suggested that the placing in all leagues his season form the basis to merge the leagues into Lowland West with West Super and top west clubs in the Lowland Leagues and Lowland East from a merging of the East equivalents.
In order to be fair, some form of financial and facility criteria would require to be factored in, as well as a commitment to join the SPFL if there was a desire to be placed in the top tier of the non-league set up.

[Robert James]

49 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

(ps, I wonder if the various 3rd Lanark revivalists will put in a cheeky application to the new WoSFL?)

" AFTER OVER 50 YEARS SINCE THEY CEASED TO BE, THIRD LANARK ARE ON THE RISE

(by Hugh McDonald for the Scottish Daily Mail 12th January 2018)

* founded in 1872, they were founder members of the Scottish Football Association

* went under in 1967 in a tide of money problems and corruption allegations

* resurrected as an amateur club, Third Lanark AFC is showing signs of rude health. "

 

Cathkin Park and the Juniors await !!

 

 

[Burnie_man]

The West’s top clubs being required to join at Tier 6 leaving E.K and Cumbernauld above them as the best in the west (leaving out the Alloa based team BSC Glasgow meantime) will be unacceptable to most, if not all of the junior teams. Furthermore, integrating EOSL and East Region is going to cause an almighty stushie.

 

Why would EK and Colts and BSC being in the LL whilst Junior clubs join at tier 6 be unacceptable to clubs??

 

In the East, a measure of reality has been applied and clubs are joining at tier 6. There is no stooshie and everyone knows the situation, it's not ideal but there you go.

 

You aren't getting a LL West and LL East anytime soon, no matter how desirable it is, and the SJFA aren't getting parity with the LL. Quicker clubs realise this then they might have a chance of finding consensus on how to proceed.

 

 

[Glenconner]

10 minutes ago, Robert James said:

" AFTER OVER 50 YEARS SINCE THEY CEASED TO BE, THIRD LANARK ARE ON THE RISE

(by Hugh McDonald for the Scottish Daily Mail 12th January 2018)

* founded in 1872, they were founder members of the Scottish Football Association

* went under in 1967 in a tide of money problems and corruption allegations

* resurrected as an amateur club, Third Lanark AFC is showing signs of rude health. "

 

Cathkin Park and the Juniors await !!

 

 

Hugh should really do some more research.

Filed under Jimmy Johnstone Academy.

[Ginaro]

5 minutes ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

Furthermore, integrating EOSL and East Region is going to cause an almighty stushie.
It’s going to take an arbitrator with the authority to work out a solution and impose it. Probably a committee of the SFA, but that is complicated by the current lack of executive officers.

At the current rate, the majority of the East Region will be in the EoSFL come 2019/20. When that happens there's no way the west are going to be allowed to leapfrog the east by going in at tier 5 - and not least because all of the tier 5 clubs are licensed currently.

[Ardenvohr6]

 
Why would EK and Colts and BSC being in the LL whilst Junior clubs join at tier 6 be unacceptable to clubs??
 
In the East, a measure of reality has been applied and clubs are joining at tier 6. There is no stooshie and everyone knows the situation, it's not ideal but there you go.
 
You aren't getting a LL West and LL East anytime soon, no matter how desirable it is, and the SJFA aren't getting parity with the LL. Quicker clubs realise this then they might have a chance of finding consensus on how to proceed.
 
 

That’s my opinion of how to resolve the matter. There would be no problem with EK, Colts and BSC being in the Lowland League West (assuming BSC actually play in the West).
The problem would be that not to merge and regionalise leagues would leave better teams in lower leagues and poorer teams in higher leagues. How long would it take to get the clubs where they should start if based on merit?
There are clubs leaving this season who, IMO, wouldn’t hack it in the top league and are trying to steal a march on far bigger and better clubs. Others are going because they realise that war is going to break out when the rest of the juniors join what they should never have been allowed to opt out of when the pyramid was set up. That situation is down the the blazers. They should be responsible for sorting it. They run football. They do, don’t they?

[drs]

The "far bigger and better clubs" have sat on their arses, other clubs have been active - its not the fault of Dalkeith that the likes of the Wee Rose and Boness aren't progressive clubs. Clubs have had years to sort this out but have made a complete pigs ear of it.

[Burnie_man]

That’s my opinion of how to resolve the matter. There would be no problem with EK, Colts and BSC being in the Lowland League West (assuming BSC actually play in the West).
The problem would be that not to merge and regionalise leagues would leave better teams in lower leagues and poorer teams in higher leagues. How long would it take to get the clubs where they should start if based on merit?
There are clubs leaving this season who, IMO, wouldn’t hack it in the top league and are trying to steal a march on far bigger and better clubs. Others are going because they realise that war is going to break out when the rest of the juniors join what they should never have been allowed to opt out of when the pyramid was set up. That situation is down the the blazers. They should be responsible for sorting it. They run football. They do, don’t they?

Blazers only "sort it" if they have a desire to sort it, and the club's back them.

We'd all have like an orderly integration but that's not happened. Clubs have to look after their own interests and in the East some see a better future by moving now and are not prepared to hang around, why would they.

If the club's not moving next season but who do want to enter the Pyramid, don't deal with this with a dose of realism then they won't get any consensus and therefore not get anywhere.

Forget parity with LL, I'm sure TJ himself will tell you that. They also need to realise that admitting the SJFA as a body into the Pyramid is probably unlikely.