Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

9 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

Derogations for current license holders without floodlights is likely to be 3 years.

When is this derogation likely to be ratified by the SFA/PWG ?

Does anyone know which ex-Junior clubs have applied, and is 31st December 2018 the cut-off date ? 

[locheeboy]

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

21  ex-junior clubs currently playing in the EoSL, but are - "Not officially in the pyramid" !

Why not/what rule is this ?

 

Junior clubs can apply, we have always been able to apply.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, locheeboy said:

Junior clubs have always been able to apply. Linlithgow did it then they changed the rules to any club being granted a licence had then join a Senior league. As it staqnds Junior clubs can apply. Having spoke with Laura Anderson at the SFA any club who already has a licence but does not have floodlights can apply for derogation. Clubs who have applied but not been granted one yet will require floodlights with no derogation open to them. This may change as I know clubs who have paid their money are hoping the SFA will open discussion with them for derogation to apply to them as well.

Junior clubs have always been able to apply and the likes of Auchinleck Talbot and Kelty Hearts were told to join the SoS/EoS. Which is why Kelty aren't a junior club anymore.

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

21  ex-junior clubs currently playing in the EoSL, but are - "Not officially in the pyramid" !

Why not/what rule is this ?

 

You said it yourself ex-junior. Those are EoS clubs.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Junior clubs have always been able to apply and the likes of Auchinleck Talbot and Kelty Hearts were told to join the SoS/EoS. Which is why Kelty aren't a junior club anymore.

You said it yourself ex-junior. Those are EoS clubs.

Correct, thank you. My first post should have had a point (3) referring specifically to ex-junior clubs now in the EoSL, whose licence applications are pending. Presumably tomorrow is the last date to submit one under the old rules (?) given the SFA handbook's "2019" date for the application of the new provisions (including floodlights).

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Correct, thank you. My first post should have had a point (3) referring specifically to ex-junior clubs now in the EoSL, whose licence applications are pending. Presumably tomorrow is the last date to submit one under the old rules (?) given the SFA handbook's "2019" date for the application of the new provisions (including floodlights).

Technically, although going by a Jeanfield related post in the EoS forum and other posts like Locheeboy's it'd still audited under the 2019 requirements.

My personal point of view is that if you're in the middle of being audited only for the licencing officer to tell you need floodlights an application for derogation should be considered.

Before the floodlights revelation became public as a 2019 requirement, there was meant to be as many as 15 applications.

[locheeboy]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Technically, although going by a Jeanfield related post in the EoS forum and other posts like Locheeboy's it'd still audited under the 2019 requirements.

My personal point of view is that if you're in the middle of being audited only for the licencing officer to tell you need floodlights an application for derogation should be considered.

Before the floodlights revelation became public as a 2019 requirement, there was meant to be as many as 15 applications.

When i asked the question about current applications or new applications before the 31/12/2018 Laura Anderson informed me all applicants would have to have floodlights to gain the licence. I think it is unfair but the Senior clubs were never going to accept a huge influx of clubs getting licenced and taking cash out of their game.

[Burnie_man]

As far as I am aware, clubs who are currently going through the Licence process and who don't have floodlights will have to apply for derogation to the Licencing board.

 

Clubs who have not begun the process can probably apply for derogation as well, but whether that would be approved is upto the Licencing board.

 

Junior clubs cannot currently be approved for Licencing as they are not within the Pyramid. If and when that happens, they'll be able to apply.

 

To date, different people at the SFA seem to give different answers to the floodlighting issue, much to the frustration of those currently being audited.

 

17 clubs from the EoS are going through the process, 9 without lights.

[Burnie_man]

Technically, although going by a Jeanfield related post in the EoS forum and other posts like Locheeboy's it'd still audited under the 2019 requirements. My personal point of view is that if you're in the middle of being audited only for the licencing officer to tell you need floodlights an application for derogation should be considered.

Before the floodlights revelation became public as a 2019 requirement, there was meant to be as many as 15 applications.

 

The SFA need to provide clarity, one SFA person says it's a Licencing board decision on derogation, another says it's the SFA Board. I believe clarity is being sought on behalf of the EoS clubs. 

 

I think how it will play out is that clubs who are already in process will receive derogation for a set period, same with current members.

 

However if you haven't began the process then they probably won't grant derogation. We'll see.

 

 

 

[locheeboy]

The change to the rule clearly states. Exisiting member clubs can apply for derogation. I asked Laura Anderson of the licence department will that include clubs who have applied, her answer was NO ! Clubs will have to organise and challenge this.

Once again I can confirm Junior clubs are entitled to apply. Application is not reserved for clubs already in the pryamid. Linlithgow and Kelty both Junior clubs when they applied. Nothing has changed.

Burnieman once again spins it his way.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

The SFA need to provide clarity, one SFA person says it's a Licencing board decision on derogation, another says it's the SFA Board. I believe clarity is being sought on behalf of the EoS clubs.

I think how it will play out is that clubs who are already in process will receive derogation for a set period, same with current members.

Hoewever if you haven't began the process then they probably won't grant derogation. We'll see.

That's basically my take on it. I'm sure part of where the uncertainty comes in is that to for a derogation application to be met, you've got to show how you're going to meet that standard eventually. With this being a last minute addition they aren't going to be able to say they can cover the costs and get the likes of planning permissions in place. Which is why some new applications might be rejected instead of being accepted only to face the same issue a year later.

Some of the Whitehill Welfare posts related to this worry if they can meet the floodlights requirement even with a "grace period".

[Burnie_man]

The change to the rule clearly states. Exisiting member clubs can apply for derogation. I asked Laura Anderson of the licence department will that include clubs who have applied, her answer was NO ! Clubs will have to organise and challenge this.
Once again I can confirm Junior clubs are entitled to apply. Application is not reserved for clubs already in the pryamid. Linlithgow and Kelty both Junior clubs when they applied. Nothing has changed.
Burnieman once again spins it his way.

Kelty Hearts were full members of the EoSFL when they were awarded their Licence. When Linlithgow and Banks o'Dee applied the rules did not have a pyramid requirement at that time. No spin, just facts.

Junior clubs will not be granted a Licence unless they join the Pyramid. No spin, just facts.

There is no clear message coming out of Hampden on derogation. That is also a fact, and why clarification is being sought.

You just cannot handle someone else providing a more factual account of what is going on. Obsessed.

[Burnie_man]

That's basically my take on it. I'm sure part of where the uncertainty comes in is that to for a derogation application to be met, you've got to show how you're going to meet that standard eventually. With this being a last minute addition they aren't going to be able to say they can cover the costs and get the likes of planning permissions in place. Which is why some new applications might be rejected instead of being accepted only to face the same issue a year later.

Some of the Whitehill Welfare posts related to this worry if they can meet the floodlights requirement even with a "grace period".

There was an EoS club who were audited a matter of hours after the 2019 regulations came out! There is also a suggestion that the SFA are not following their own rules for changes of this nature, that a reasonable timescale should be allowed for changes to be complied with.

 

I think derogations will be approved but not for brand new applicants.

 

It's a clever move, the SFA know that having floodlights is a very reasonable requirement to have, they also know it slows down applicants. A win - win.

 

[locheeboy]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Kelty Hearts were full members of the EoSFL when they were awarded their Licence. When Linlithgow and Banks o'Dee applied the rules did not have a pyramid requirement at that time. No spin, just facts.

Junior clubs will not be granted a Licence unless they join the Pyramid. No spin, just facts.

There is no clear message coming out of Hampden on derogation. That is also a fact, and why clarification is being sought.

You just cannot handle someone else providing a more factual account of what is going on. Obsessed.
 

Kelty applied as a Junior club and had to move to gain the licence due to the rule change, that still applies. Linlthgow got their licence before the rule change. The Juniors are coming in next season 2019-20 despite what you say. As I said Junior clubs can apply for the licence.... Facts, I am more than happy to accept facts even if they come from you.  What I dislike about you is the hatred you have towards the Juniors or any poster who speaks against the bile you write.  Time will tell who is right. 

[Fife Journeyman]

How will this affect Bonyrigg Rose? Probably the current favourites for promotion but don't have lights. Would they consider ground sharing with Newtongrange or Penicuik for a season so they can secure a licence.
It's all very messy

[Burnie_man]

Kelty applied as a Junior club and had to move to gain the licence due to the rule change, that still applies. Linlthgow got their licence before the rule change. The Juniors are coming in next season 2019-20 despite what you say. As I said Junior clubs can apply for the licence.... Facts, I am more than happy to accept facts even if they come from you.  What I dislike about you is the hatred you have towards the Juniors or any poster who speaks against the bile you write.  Time will tell who is right. 

Sigh, I think you're best ignored. Loonball.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There was an EoS club who were audited a matter of hours after the 2019 regulations came out! There is also a suggestion that the SFA are not following their own rules for changes of this nature, that a reasonable timescale should be allowed for changes to be complied with.

 

I think derogations will be approved but not for brand new applicants.

 

It's a clever move, the SFA know that having floodlights is a very reasonable requirement to have, they also know it slows down applicants. A win - win.

 

It was always a matter of time. I'd like to think that it'll get challenged/clarified so that existing applications are honoured by derogations being accepted. It's a farce already, but it'll be even more so if the EoS Champion is unlicenced and the SoS Champion is Stranraer Reserves meaning no promotion.

[Burnie_man]

How will this affect Bonyrigg Rose? Probably the current favourites for promotion but don't have lights. Would they consider ground sharing with Newtongrange or Penicuik for a season so they can secure a licence.
It's all very messy

They'll likely be Licenced and have a set period of time to install floodlights.

[Sergeant Wilson]

9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There was an EoS club who were audited a matter of hours after the 2019 regulations came out! There is also a suggestion that the SFA are not following their own rules for changes of this nature, that a reasonable timescale should be allowed for changes to be complied with.

 

I think derogations will be approved but not for brand new applicants.

 

It's a clever move, the SFA know that having floodlights is a very reasonable requirement to have, they also know it slows down applicants. A win - win.

 

Clever? Floodlights are an advantage, no doudt. But this seems like a constantly moving goal post.

They know what they want, we know the preferred structure and basic requirements. They should publish them and invite applications.

[Burnie_man]

It was always a matter of time. I'd like to think that it'll get challenged/clarified so that existing applications are honoured by derogations being accepted. It's a farce already, but it'll be even more so if the EoS Champion is unlicenced and the SoS Champion is Stranraer Reserves meaning no promotion.

The SFA's whole handling of PWG and Licencing has been poor, their communication is very poor. Self-protectionism is rife throughout the game.

[GNU_Linux]

I think a fair middle ground is clubs can apply with all other criteria met sans floodflights. Approval on these grounds would require a clear plan for floodlights within x derogation period. Failure to do so could incur prize money from the scottish cup being recouped by the SFA or some other punishment.