The BIG strip the titles thread

[nacho]

2 hours ago, Henrik's tongue said:

You were telling us all how great your new squad of players were a fortnight a go (they're not)

you got pumped by the red imps last year and still won the league

[nacho]

1 hour ago, Paralytic Critic said:

Or if they continue with the same club charade get them to pay off the tax owing for oldco, then they can have all the titles they want. If not then drop the pretence and get it sorted in the records that they are a 5 year old club.

yawn, the only charade is you lot continuing to kid on we are a new club

[nacho]

1 hour ago, Paralytic Critic said:

you have to accept that arguing with an idiot is not going to end good for you, they will only drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

"end good"

[nacho]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

No, they suit you.

That's a different thing.

 

Explain this "no advantage" thing to me and why it makes sense to you.

The crux of the "Strip the Titles" argument is that without EBT, we would not have been able to afford certain players and therefore we gained a sporting advantage by having these players sign for us using EBTs. There has been various quotes from Board members who said that we used the scheme as it allowed us to buy players we “MAY” have not otherwise been able to sign. "MAY" being the most important word of course.

So lets look at that player list in greater detail.

In total 53 Rangers PLAYERS were paid a sum from an EBT trust. The total paid to those players was £33,322,308. I believe these 53 players can be split into 2 Groups.

Group 1 are players who I believe would have signed regardless. Either the EBT they received was of very low value or they were signing for their boyhood heroes or in some cases earning 5/6/7 times more than ever before. These players are:

Alan Hutton, Steven Smith, Federico Nieto, Jerome Bonnissel, Chris Burke, Dan Eggen, Ian Murray, Maurice Ross, Bob Malcolm, Tero Penttila, Billy Dodds, Kris Boyd, Marvin Andrews, Gavin Rae, Zurab Khizanishvili, Steven Thompson, Neil McCann, Alex Rae, Steven Davis, Andrei Kanchelskis, Gregory Vignal, Libor Sionko, Olivier Bernard, Michael Mols.

Group 2 are players who are either foreigners who received anything above £300k or home grown players who got more than £1m. These are:

Arthur Numan, Bert Konterman, Carlos Cuellar, Ronald Waterreus, Sotirios Kyrgiakos, Paolo Vanoli, Jean-Alain Boumsong, Julien Rodriguez, Lorenzo Amoruso, Mikel Arteta, Fernando Ricksen, Peter Lovenkrands, Nuno Capucho, Claudio Caniggia, Kevin Muscat, Pedro Mendes, Ronald De Boer, Thomas Buffel, Tore Andre Flo, Michael Ball, Christian Nerlinger, Dado Prso, Stefan Klos, Sasa Papac, Jesper Christiansen, Egil Ostenstad, Craig Moore, Nacho Novo, Barry Ferguson.

For Group 2, the total amount paid into the Sub Trust for EBT was £27,639,283.

The ruling today means that for those 29 players, Rangers would have had to pay circa £11,055,713 of tax over the period of 10 years if they wanted to pay the players the same amount net of tax.

That is £1,105,571 per year.

In order for anyone to prove Rangers got a sporting advantage, they need to prove that without EBTS, the above players would not have signed. To do this, they would need to pass 3 tests.

Test 1 – If each of the above players were purely offered the salary that was agreed with them and NO EBT, would they still have signed?

Test 2 – If any of the above players did not pass Test 1 and stated they wouldn’t have signed on the base salary, would they have agreed a salary in between what they got paid as remuneration and with the additional EBT? This would reduce the £11m liability mentioned above.

Test 3 – If any of the players failed Test 1 and then failed Test 2 and would only sign for the exact net amount they got during their time with Rangers, would Murray simply have bitten the bullet and paid it.

Given the debt he constantly put us in and given all of the signings were made prior to the Lloyds freeze, there is no doubt that the small amount of players, if any at all, that failed all 3 test would have got the money they wanted.

No senior counsel would be able to prove the above 3 tests which is why the advice given to the SFA over the last few months in advance of the decision is that there is simply no point. You will be lucky to get 1 or 2 players saying they wouldn’t have signed for anything less and even if they did say that, Murray would simply say he would have used our facility.

[bennett]

11 minutes ago, nacho said:

yawn, the only charade is you lot continuing to kid on we are a new club

The gates, you can't deny the gates proof (c)Dull Ken.

 

[BinoBalls]

8 minutes ago, nacho said:

The crux of the "Strip the Titles" argument is that without EBT, we would not have been able to afford certain players and therefore we gained a sporting advantage by having these players sign for us using EBTs. There has been various quotes from Board members who said that we used the scheme as it allowed us to buy players we “MAY” have not otherwise been able to sign. "MAY" being the most important word of course.

So lets look at that player list in greater detail.

In total 53 Rangers PLAYERS were paid a sum from an EBT trust. The total paid to those players was £33,322,308. I believe these 53 players can be split into 2 Groups.

Group 1 are players who I believe would have signed regardless. Either the EBT they received was of very low value or they were signing for their boyhood heroes or in some cases earning 5/6/7 times more than ever before. These players are:

Alan Hutton, Steven Smith, Federico Nieto, Jerome Bonnissel, Chris Burke, Dan Eggen, Ian Murray, Maurice Ross, Bob Malcolm, Tero Penttila, Billy Dodds, Kris Boyd, Marvin Andrews, Gavin Rae, Zurab Khizanishvili, Steven Thompson, Neil McCann, Alex Rae, Steven Davis, Andrei Kanchelskis, Gregory Vignal, Libor Sionko, Olivier Bernard, Michael Mols.

Group 2 are players who are either foreigners who received anything above £300k or home grown players who got more than £1m. These are:

Arthur Numan, Bert Konterman, Carlos Cuellar, Ronald Waterreus, Sotirios Kyrgiakos, Paolo Vanoli, Jean-Alain Boumsong, Julien Rodriguez, Lorenzo Amoruso, Mikel Arteta, Fernando Ricksen, Peter Lovenkrands, Nuno Capucho, Claudio Caniggia, Kevin Muscat, Pedro Mendes, Ronald De Boer, Thomas Buffel, Tore Andre Flo, Michael Ball, Christian Nerlinger, Dado Prso, Stefan Klos, Sasa Papac, Jesper Christiansen, Egil Ostenstad, Craig Moore, Nacho Novo, Barry Ferguson.

For Group 2, the total amount paid into the Sub Trust for EBT was £27,639,283.

The ruling today means that for those 29 players, Rangers would have had to pay circa £11,055,713 of tax over the period of 10 years if they wanted to pay the players the same amount net of tax.

That is £1,105,571 per year.

In order for anyone to prove Rangers got a sporting advantage, they need to prove that without EBTS, the above players would not have signed. To do this, they would need to pass 3 tests.

Test 1 – If each of the above players were purely offered the salary that was agreed with them and NO EBT, would they still have signed?

Test 2 – If any of the above players did not pass Test 1 and stated they wouldn’t have signed on the base salary, would they have agreed a salary in between what they got paid as remuneration and with the additional EBT? This would reduce the £11m liability mentioned above.

Test 3 – If any of the players failed Test 1 and then failed Test 2 and would only sign for the exact net amount they got during their time with Rangers, would Murray simply have bitten the bullet and paid it.

Given the debt he constantly put us in and given all of the signings were made prior to the Lloyds freeze, there is no doubt that the small amount of players, if any at all, that failed all 3 test would have got the money they wanted.

No senior counsel would be able to prove the above 3 tests which is why the advice given to the SFA over the last few months in advance of the decision is that there is simply no point. You will be lucky to get 1 or 2 players saying they wouldn’t have signed for anything less and even if they did say that, Murray would simply say he would have used our facility.

Amongst many other quotes, your current chairman is on record saying it gave Rangers a sporting advantage. What more proof do you want? Yes it may not be provable and titles may not be stripped but everyone knows the truth. You can type another 17 paragraphs full of dubious self-serving assumptions, but it won't change anything.

Rangers will probably keep the titles but I guarantee you if this had happened to Celtic, you'd be on this board saying the polar opposite. You're too emotionally attached to see straight. It's called Cognitive Disonance. I grew up a Rangers fan (shudder), my family are Rangers fans and even I can see what's staring everyone in the face.

on another note it's been at least 2 hours since a Rangers fan called someone a moon howler. Could someone please oblige ASAP?

Failing that, another bennett joke about the ibrox disaster would be grand. Great to see his reputation in the red by the way, Tedi would be devastated. 

[bennett]

3 minutes ago, BinoBalls said:

Amongst many other quotes, your current chairman is on record saying it gave Rangers a sporting advantage. What more proof do you want? Yes it may not be provable and titles may not be stripped but everyone knows the truth. 

 

But but but but but but but but Dave Kings a liar......

[BinoBalls]

Just now, bennett said:

 

But but but but but but but but Dave Kings a liar......

When *even* a self-serving anus like King is prepared to admit it, that speaks volumes. 

Didn't expect you to get that though Ben. Isn't there a Remedial OF forum where you can go head to head with hellbhoy?

[hellbhoy]

4 hours ago, nacho said:

nope, just pointing out the hypocrisy from some on here, we've now got good tax dodging schemes and bad ones (rangers obviously)

There's tax avoidance and then there is blatant flouting of the law breaking the rules intentionally disguised as loans that never have to be paid until death.

You do actually realise that properly run EBT trusts actually have money in the account that increases year after year. In Rangers trust, money went in each year and was emptied out before the end of the year. A properly run EBT trust has loans being serviced/paid back either in full or by instalments, how much did Rangers trust have paid back from all those loans?, that's right!, not a single solitary penny.

Are you starting to get why the HMRC chased the club down?, if not, then f**k off Tedi.

[hellbhoy]

23 minutes ago, nacho said:

The crux of the "Strip the Titles" argument is that without EBT, we would not have been able to afford certain players and therefore we gained a sporting advantage by having these players sign for us using EBTs. There has been various quotes from Board members who said that we used the scheme as it allowed us to buy players we “MAY” have not otherwise been able to sign. "MAY" being the most important word of course.

So lets look at that player list in greater detail.

In total 53 Rangers PLAYERS were paid a sum from an EBT trust. The total paid to those players was £33,322,308. I believe these 53 players can be split into 2 Groups.

Group 1 are players who I believe would have signed regardless. Either the EBT they received was of very low value or they were signing for their boyhood heroes or in some cases earning 5/6/7 times more than ever before. These players are:

Alan Hutton, Steven Smith, Federico Nieto, Jerome Bonnissel, Chris Burke, Dan Eggen, Ian Murray, Maurice Ross, Bob Malcolm, Tero Penttila, Billy Dodds, Kris Boyd, Marvin Andrews, Gavin Rae, Zurab Khizanishvili, Steven Thompson, Neil McCann, Alex Rae, Steven Davis, Andrei Kanchelskis, Gregory Vignal, Libor Sionko, Olivier Bernard, Michael Mols.

Group 2 are players who are either foreigners who received anything above £300k or home grown players who got more than £1m. These are:

Arthur Numan, Bert Konterman, Carlos Cuellar, Ronald Waterreus, Sotirios Kyrgiakos, Paolo Vanoli, Jean-Alain Boumsong, Julien Rodriguez, Lorenzo Amoruso, Mikel Arteta, Fernando Ricksen, Peter Lovenkrands, Nuno Capucho, Claudio Caniggia, Kevin Muscat, Pedro Mendes, Ronald De Boer, Thomas Buffel, Tore Andre Flo, Michael Ball, Christian Nerlinger, Dado Prso, Stefan Klos, Sasa Papac, Jesper Christiansen, Egil Ostenstad, Craig Moore, Nacho Novo, Barry Ferguson.

For Group 2, the total amount paid into the Sub Trust for EBT was £27,639,283.

The ruling today means that for those 29 players, Rangers would have had to pay circa £11,055,713 of tax over the period of 10 years if they wanted to pay the players the same amount net of tax.

That is £1,105,571 per year.

In order for anyone to prove Rangers got a sporting advantage, they need to prove that without EBTS, the above players would not have signed. To do this, they would need to pass 3 tests.

Test 1 – If each of the above players were purely offered the salary that was agreed with them and NO EBT, would they still have signed?

Test 2 – If any of the above players did not pass Test 1 and stated they wouldn’t have signed on the base salary, would they have agreed a salary in between what they got paid as remuneration and with the additional EBT? This would reduce the £11m liability mentioned above.

Test 3 – If any of the players failed Test 1 and then failed Test 2 and would only sign for the exact net amount they got during their time with Rangers, would Murray simply have bitten the bullet and paid it.

Given the debt he constantly put us in and given all of the signings were made prior to the Lloyds freeze, there is no doubt that the small amount of players, if any at all, that failed all 3 test would have got the money they wanted.

No senior counsel would be able to prove the above 3 tests which is why the advice given to the SFA over the last few months in advance of the decision is that there is simply no point. You will be lucky to get 1 or 2 players saying they wouldn’t have signed for anything less and even if they did say that, Murray would simply say he would have used our facility.

Yip, deffo Tedi. This won't end well for him.

[nacho]

11 minutes ago, BinoBalls said:

Amongst many other quotes, your current chairman is on record saying it gave Rangers a sporting advantage. What more proof do you want? Yes it may not be provable and titles may not be stripped but everyone knows the truth. You can type another 17 paragraphs full of dubious self-serving assumptions, but it won't change anything.

Rangers will probably keep the titles but I guarantee you if this had happened to Celtic, you'd be on this board saying the polar opposite. You're too emotionally attached to see straight. It's called Cognitive Disonance. I grew up a Rangers fan (shudder), my family are Rangers fans and even I can see what's staring everyone in the face.

on another note it's been at least 2 hours since a Rangers fan called someone a moon howler. Could someone please oblige ASAP?

Failing that, another bennett joke about the ibrox disaster would be grand. Great to see his reputation in the red by the way, Tedi would be devastated. 

if it happened to celtic i would look at the evidence and conclude that there is no case to answer because there isnt, hope that clears i up for you and as for david murray what he actually said was “It gave us an opportunity to get players that we perhaps would not be able to afford.” like i said above

[bennett]

5 minutes ago, BinoBalls said:

When *even* a self-serving anus like King is prepared to admit it, that speaks volumes. 

Didn't expect you to get that though Ben. Isn't there a Remedial OF forum where you can go head to head with hellbhoy?

Apologise to the QC for that slur.....

 

5 minutes ago, hellbhoy said:

There's tax avoidance and then there is blatant flouting of the law breaking the rules intentionally disguised as loans that never have to be paid until death.

You do actually realise that properly run EBT trusts actually have money in the account that increases year after year. In Rangers trust, money went in each year and was emptied out before the end of the year. A properly run EBT trust has loans being serviced/paid back either in full or by instalments, how much did Rangers trust have paid back from all those loans?, that's right!, not a single solitary penny.

Are you starting to get why the HMRC chased the club down?, if not, then f**k off Tedi.

Are you Paul Baxebdale Walker?

[nacho]

6 minutes ago, hellbhoy said:

There's tax avoidance and then there is blatant flouting of the law breaking the rules intentionally disguised as loans that never have to be paid until death.

You do actually realise that properly run EBT trusts actually have money in the account that increases year after year. In Rangers trust, money went in each year and was emptied out before the end of the year. A properly run EBT trust has loans being serviced/paid back either in full or by instalments, how much did Rangers trust have paid back from all those loans?, that's right!, not a single solitary penny.

Are you starting to get why the HMRC chased the club down?, if not, then f**k off Tedi.

every ebt has payments intentionally disguised as loans , thats what they are, hmrc is chasing everyone down for tax avoidance, the only difference between us and celtic is that your film scheme was done with the illusion of separation fom the club

[nacho]

3 minutes ago, hellbhoy said:

Yip, deffo Tedi. This won't end well for him.

yawn, it will end well for me as we wont be losing our titles no matter how much you greet about it

[BobWilliamson]

4 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The court case has brought it to the surface again, but essentially, it's not about that.  It's about player registration.

I've been saying little else for days.

Ohhhh f**k we know that!!

[hellbhoy]

Just now, nacho said:

every ebt has payments intentionally disguised as loans , thats what they are, hmrc is chasing everyone down for tax avoidance, the only difference between us and celtic is that your film scheme was done with the illusion of separation fom the club

While you are busy running around to look for any piece of smelly shite to back up your warped view, "whit aboot thame?"

See if you want an end to this period!, why don't you rally as many The Rangers supporters and ask Dave KIng to have the SPL commission to go on appeal by virtue of The Rangers being the victim of this so called witch-hunt. Your club is the only entity that can legally reopen the SPL commission appealing it's outcome and have this matter resolved factoring in the Supreme Courts ruling. Are you confident Rangers will win if the Supreme Courts ruling branding the money going into the EBT trust was legally declared in a court of law as taxable earnings?

This then means that the side letters mean f**k all even if they are loans because the reopened SPL commission will have to include why the HMRC won that argument.

Go on Nacho, get onto The Rangers and get Dave KIng to reopen the SPL commission and have this done and dusted for all time.

[hellbhoy]

7 minutes ago, nacho said:

yawn, it will end well for me as we wont be losing our titles no matter how much you greet about it

Won't matter if you lose another club you supported during your lifetime.

[Henrik's tongue]

54 minutes ago, nacho said:

you got pumped by the red imps last year and still won the league

Yep. We got beat by Red Imps then got into the group stages of the CL.

 Rangers? Papped oot. 

[Henrik's tongue]

So far that's The_Kincardine, Forever_Blueco, Nacho and Boab Williamson and not one of them have said a word about bennett mocking the ibrox disaster. Why? Cos he supports The Rangers.

 Hypocrites to a man.

[Monkey Tennis]

14 minutes ago, BobWilliamson said:

Ohhhh f**k we know that!!

And yet you can't tackle it at all.