Granny Danger Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 12 minutes ago, Crùbag said: Labour FFS... they should be opposing the likes of Farage at every given opportunity, not appeasing the odious fckr. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/26/labour-not-putting-up-a-fight-against-farage-in-clacton I’m happy to see Labour doing anything (nothing) in Clacton if it means more folk will vote Tory and keep Farage out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 5 hours ago, Sheas_cake said: He's also run away from his blatant lie about the two-child cap as well. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-government-urged-scrap-two-30555267 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheas_cake Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 On 25/06/2024 at 23:46, Jedi2 said: The SNP could of course abolish the two child cap but chooses not to. https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snp-could-axe-controversial-two-30515520 48 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-government-urged-scrap-two-30555267 Thanks for linking to an article that proves your dishonesty - I'm guessing you didn't bother checking it to the end. The Scottish Government does NOT have the power to prevent DWP administering the two child cap on Universal Credit claimants. They would (yet again) have to top up complete different things to mitigate this. I see your link also conveniently reminds us that your hero Kier is refusing to do anything about it either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 If you think Labout are 'right-wing' today, then, given a lot of the similarities between their manifesto of now and pledges back in 1987 and 1992, they must have been 'right-wing' then as well: Comparisons: Massive house building programme (2024, 1987, 1992) Greater protection for victims of crime, particularly women/ more police on the beat (2024, 1987, 1992) Working in partnership with private firms to draw in investment to the state for job creation and get them to invest in public services along with the govt (2024, 1987, 1992) Tackling NHS Waiting Lists by more flexible working hours (weekends) extending access to GPS at weekends as well. Joining up the NHS with community care services (2024,1987,1992) Expansion of Nursery Education to 3 and 4 years olds/Breakfast clubs in all schools (2024,1987,1992) End hire and fire, (modern equivalent) zero hours contracts, strengthen trade union legislation/new deal for workers. (2024, 1987, 1992) Maintain taxation rates on income, VAT, and NI (2024, 1992). In 87 there was a call for Wealth Tax on the top 1% of earners. Maintain membership of NATO (2024, 1987,1992) In 87 there was a policy of scrapping Trident, obviously changed now. Investment in the Technologies of the day as a driver of economic growth (in 2024 obviously Green Energy) Nationalisation of rail (2024) In 87 and 92 water and gas were also included in Nationalisation. The point of choosing 87 and 92 as a comparison is the 'traditional' Labour 'values' which it is claimed they have abandoned, but yet in looking at priorities from their 'traditional' years to now, is there really 'that' much difference? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 18 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: If you think Labout are 'right-wing' today, then, given a lot of the similarities between their manifesto of now and pledges back in 1987 and 1992, they must have been 'right-wing' then as well: Comparisons: Massive house building programme (2024, 1987, 1992) Greater protection for victims of crime, particularly women/ more police on the beat (2024, 1987, 1992) Working in partnership with private firms to draw in investment to the state for job creation and get them to invest in public services along with the govt (2024, 1987, 1992) Tackling NHS Waiting Lists by more flexible working hours (weekends) extending access to GPS at weekends as well. Joining up the NHS with community care services (2024,1987,1992) Expansion of Nursery Education to 3 and 4 years olds/Breakfast clubs in all schools (2024,1987,1992) End hire and fire, (modern equivalent) zero hours contracts, strengthen trade union legislation/new deal for workers. (2024, 1987, 1992) Maintain taxation rates on income, VAT, and NI (2024, 1992). In 87 there was a call for Wealth Tax on the top 1% of earners. Maintain membership of NATO (2024, 1987,1992) In 87 there was a policy of scrapping Trident, obviously changed now. Investment in the Technologies of the day as a driver of economic growth (in 2024 obviously Green Energy) Nationalisation of rail (2024) In 87 and 92 water and gas were also included in Nationalisation. The point of choosing 87 and 92 as a comparison is the 'traditional' Labour 'values' which it is claimed they have abandoned, but yet in looking at priorities from their 'traditional' years to now, is there really 'that' much difference? Cant wait to see the abolition of zero hours contracts as one of the first pieces of legislation. After all there’s no budgetary considerations so no reason for any delay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, Sheas_cake said: Thanks for linking to an article that proves your dishonesty - I'm guessing you didn't bother checking it to the end. The Scottish Government does NOT have the power to prevent DWP administering the two child cap on Universal Credit claimants. They would (yet again) have to top up complete different things to mitigate this. I see your link also conveniently reminds us that your hero Kier is refusing to do anything about it either. Can they 'mitigate' the said cap..yes or no? After all they make a lot of noise about 'mitigating' the Bedroom Tax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 With all the 'I didn't leave Labour, Labour left me' heard over the last few years, it's interesting that general policy positions haven't changed all that much from then until now Could it be rather Jim Murphy standing on his Irn Bru crates in 2014, and the 'working with the Tories/Better Together' rather than policy differences? A lot of SNP supporters 'got on board' pre and post-Referendum, with many having previously been Labour voters, as we know. It has taken 10 years to move on (for some) from Murphy et al, but the 'they are right-wing' still doesn't wash...either they have 'always' been right-wing, policy wise, (somewhat unlikely), or they aren't 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Your a nugget if you vote for Sir Arthur fucking Daley. More flip flops than the Havaianas warehouse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 5 hours ago, Jedi2 said: If you think Labout are 'right-wing' today, then, given a lot of the similarities between their manifesto of now and pledges back in 1987 and 1992, they must have been 'right-wing' then as well: Comparisons: Massive house building programme (2024, 1987, 1992) Greater protection for victims of crime, particularly women/ more police on the beat (2024, 1987, 1992) Working in partnership with private firms to draw in investment to the state for job creation and get them to invest in public services along with the govt (2024, 1987, 1992) Tackling NHS Waiting Lists by more flexible working hours (weekends) extending access to GPS at weekends as well. Joining up the NHS with community care services (2024,1987,1992) Expansion of Nursery Education to 3 and 4 years olds/Breakfast clubs in all schools (2024,1987,1992) End hire and fire, (modern equivalent) zero hours contracts, strengthen trade union legislation/new deal for workers. (2024, 1987, 1992) Maintain taxation rates on income, VAT, and NI (2024, 1992). In 87 there was a call for Wealth Tax on the top 1% of earners. Maintain membership of NATO (2024, 1987,1992) In 87 there was a policy of scrapping Trident, obviously changed now. Investment in the Technologies of the day as a driver of economic growth (in 2024 obviously Green Energy) Nationalisation of rail (2024) In 87 and 92 water and gas were also included in Nationalisation. The point of choosing 87 and 92 as a comparison is the 'traditional' Labour 'values' which it is claimed they have abandoned, but yet in looking at priorities from their 'traditional' years to now, is there really 'that' much difference? Comparisons? Labour used to be a socialist party 1987 & 1992 - Clause IV - a commitment to socialsim To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. 2024 - Clause IV - a commitment to f*ck all The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: Comparisons? Labour used to be a socialist party 1987 & 1992 - Clause IV - a commitment to socialsim To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. 2024 - Clause IV - a commitment to f*ck all The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect. Socialsim? A new movement? Clearly the ethos of both definitions is the same if not the mass public ownership. Moving from common 'ownership of the means of production' to 'for the many, not the few, 'power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many'...'living in a spirit of Solidarity, Tolerance and Respect', still doesn't sound very 'right-wing'. In a society which has moved largely from factories to a service sector, the common ownership doesn't apply in the same way in any case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 hour ago, dirty dingus said: Your a nugget if you vote for Sir Arthur fucking Daley. More flip flops than the Havaianas warehouse. Flip flops and U-turns: Replace the Council Tax Ban Woid Burning Stoves Climate Change Targets Upgrade the A9 Provide a laptop to every school pupil (now planning to be means tested) Oppose new licenses for oil and gas Have Independence or 'For Independence' on the Ballot Paper Back Matheson..then don't back Matheson over I-pad Gate Scrap Alcohol Advertising Take the GRA block to the Supreme Court And that's the tip of the iceberg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 10 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: Socialsim? A new movement? What are you havering on about now? 10 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: Clearly the ethos of both definitions is the same if not the mass public ownership. If the ethos is the same, why did Gaitskill try to dump Clause IV in 1959 and Blair later succeed in 1995? What was wrong with the central aim & most dearly held value of 'Old' Labour? 10 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: Moving from common 'ownership of the means of production' to 'for the many, not the few, 'power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many'...'living in a spirit of Solidarity, Tolerance and Respect', still doesn't sound very 'right-wing'. I didn't say it was right wing. Please stop putting words in other peoples mouths. I said that Labour had abandoned its founding socialist principles between its 1987/1992 manifestoes & its 2024 manifesto - the three manifestoes you were trying to say were nearly identical. 12 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: In a society which has moved largely from factories to a service sector, the common ownership doesn't apply in the same way in any case. Firstly, this wasn't true at all in Gaitskill's time Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that that privatisation of steel, railways, airways/airports/aerospace, gas, electricity, telecoms, water (in E&W) & royal mail was uniformly a good thing? What sort of socialist are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 9 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: Flip flops and U-turns: Replace the Council Tax Ban Woid Burning Stoves Climate Change Targets Upgrade the A9 Provide a laptop to every school pupil (now planning to be means tested) Oppose new licenses for oil and gas Have Independence or 'For Independence' on the Ballot Paper Back Matheson..then don't back Matheson over I-pad Gate Scrap Alcohol Advertising Take the GRA block to the Supreme Court And that's the tip of the iceberg And here's Jedi repeating his list of previously debunked claims. Yawn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: And here's Jedi repeating his list of previously debunked claims. Yawn. So the SNP have, after promising to do so, done all of these things. Good show. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheas_cake Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, Jedi2 said: Can they 'mitigate' the said cap..yes or no? After all they make a lot of noise about 'mitigating' the Bedroom Tax At least you've finally accepted that they can't "abolish" the cap. Perhaps you'll be less dishonest from now on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 10 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: What are you havering on about now? If the ethos is the same, why did Gaitskill try to dump Clause IV in 1959 and Blair later succeed in 1995? What was wrong with the central aim & most dearly held value of 'Old' Labour? I didn't say it was right wing. Please stop putting words in other peoples mouths. I said that Labour had abandoned its founding socialist principles between its 1987/1992 manifestoes & its 2024 manifesto - the three manifestoes you were trying to say were nearly identical. Firstly, this wasn't true at all in Gaitskill's time Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that that privatisation of steel, railways, airways/airports/aerospace, gas, electricity, telecoms, water (in E&W) & royal mail was uniformly a good thing? What sort of socialist are you? And where do I say that I am favour of the privatisation of all these areas? If you read what I did actually say...that the industrial landscape of the UK has changed from factories to a service sector, that public ownership of industry on a large scale is less realistic. That doesn't mean that railways, gas, electricity, water etc shouldn't be in public hands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: So the SNP have, after promising to do so, done all of these things. Good show. Where did I say that? Stop putting words in other people's mouths. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Oh Scotty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, Jedi2 said: And where do I say that I am favour of the privatisation of all these areas? If you read what I did actually say...that the industrial landscape of the UK has changed from factories to a service sector, that public ownership of industry on a large scale is less realistic. That doesn't mean that railways, gas, electricity, water etc shouldn't be in public hands. Uh. Jedi - I asked you a question about previously privatised industries. I didn't make any statement stating that you were in favour of privatisation. A socialist should believe in the mutual ownership of all these industries. You say that you believe in nationalisation of at least 4 of them. That's good. Why then, are you attempting to persuade people to vote for a party that has abandoned these socialist principles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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