Guest Moomintroll Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Tibbermoresaint is absolutely right, we'd be a lot better off if people just stopped doing all the things that causes problems in the world.So we can add irony to sanctimony in the list of words that he doesn't understand the meaning of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, The Moonster said: Nobody has ever said that junkies are blameless. Plenty of people on this thread are going out of their way to absolve junkies of blame. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: Absolutely we have a shared responsibility to each other. Part of that is treating ourselves and others with respect, which means not being a junkie. Almost everyone has inherent destructive impulses, and almost everyone has to a lesser or greater degree a vulnerability to addiction in some form or another. When society leaves people behind, when it denies people a constructive outlet then people tend to spiral into those destructive influences. It literally could be anyone of us at any given time. It doesn't apply to the entirety of the addict population by any means, but weighing policies that help the former even if it means going easier on the latter is by far a more productive approach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Plenty of people on this thread are going out of their way to absolve junkies of blame. Point out one post where it says junkies should be absolved of all blame. Just one post will do. On a totally unrelated note, do you drink coffee? Edited July 17, 2019 by The Moonster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) Any chance that it could just be, well, you know, the weedgie factor that is blurring these statitstics? Just saying like. Edited July 17, 2019 by HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, renton said: Almost everyone has inherent destructive impulses, and almost everyone has to a lesser or greater degree a vulnerability to addiction in some form or another. When society leaves people behind, when it denies people a constructive outlet then people tend to spiral into those destructive influences. It literally could be anyone of us at any given time. It doesn't apply to the entirety of the addict population by any means, but weighing policies that help the former even if it means going easier on the latter is by far a more productive approach. There's always an excuse. If it isn't society, the economy or Thatcherism it's inherent destructive impulses. Which would be a great name for a metal band. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Plenty of people on this thread are going out of their way to absolve junkies of blame. It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It should be predicated on rehabilitation to the degree that this is possible, and only after that incarceration to protect the rest of society. You don't want to stop people being Junkies. You want to punish them for being Junkies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Point out one post where it says junkies should be absolved of all blame. Just one post will do. On a totally unrelated note, do you drink coffee?He's clearly drinking something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Moonster said: Point out one post where it says junkies should be absolved of all blame. Just one post will do. On a totally unrelated note, do you drink coffee? Read this thread. There are plenty of posts attempting to direct blame away from junkies. Apparently inherent destructive impulses are the latest to blame. No. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, renton said: It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It should be predicated on rehabilitation to the degree that this is possible, and only after that incarceration to protect the rest of society. You don't want to stop people being Junkies. You want to punish them for being Junkies. I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, renton said: It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: People are responsible for their own actions. Sometimes those actions have painful consequences. That's tough. If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough. I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime. 2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules. No you don't. Ever stricter and harsher penalties for breaking the law have never once stopped a crime. The existence of Death Row would be a cursory proof of that even if multiple studies on the effects of incarceration on recidivism didn't exist. The penalties for transgressions are incarceration - the removal of freedom, but those penalties need to be weighted in such a way that those being penalised benefit in the long term. In the case of drug addictions we can penalise people for the crimes they commit in order to fuel their addictions but it does nothing to alleviate the underlying issues of their addictions, without which actions you will simply repeat the cycle ad nauseam. People don't just stop being Junkies, willpower alone is insufficient to the task. We need to treat addiction like the health issue it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ross. said: If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough. I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging. You're a lunatic. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, renton said: No you don't. Ever stricter and harsher penalties for breaking the law have never once stopped a crime. The existence of Death Row would be a cursory proof of that even if multiple studies on the effects of incarceration on recidivism didn't exist. The penalties for transgressions are incarceration - the removal of freedom, but those penalties need to be weighted in such a way that those being penalised benefit in the long term. In the case of drug addictions we can penalise people for the crimes they commit in order to fuel their addictions but it does nothing to alleviate the underlying issues of their addictions, without which actions you will simply repeat the cycle ad nauseam. People don't just stop being Junkies, willpower alone is insufficient to the task. We need to treat addiction like the health issue it is. Why do you obsess about the perpetrators of crime and not the victims? You're clearly intelligent but woefully misguided. Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: Why do you obsess about the perpetrators of crime and not the victims? You're clearly intelligent but woefully misguided. Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice. If addiction were a choice it wouldn't be called addiction. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, renton said: If addiction were a choice it wouldn't be called addiction. If it wasn't a choice we'd all be addicts. Or none of us would be. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I'm sure many victims of crimes perpetrated by junkies would be unhappy at a policy of just leave the junkies to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said: I'm sure many victims of crimes perpetrated by junkies would be unhappy at a policy of just leave the junkies to it. Explain to them that junkies have inherent destructive impulses and they'll understand. Who wouldn't? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Explain to them that junkies have inherent destructive impulses and they'll understand. Who wouldn't? Well they'd probably say if they have an inherent destructive nature why are you leaving them to rot and repeat the exact same thing again. Or do you just want to lock them all up? Euthanasia? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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