Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Detournement]

Stephen Pollard is 99% bile.

[LongTimeLurker]

29 minutes ago, Detournement said:

There is nothing complicated about this. The Israeli government manufactured this crisis and are solely responsible for these events. ...

It takes one to tango! All those low budget missile swarms from Gaza suddenly appeared out of nowhere and  just launched by themselves. Used to think it was only American culture that had this infantile need for a good guy and a bad guy and couldn't cope with real life being about shades of grey. Adam Curtis was quite persuasive about how it also went on closer to home:

 

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It takes one to tango! All those low budget missile swarms from Gaza suddenly appeared out of nowhere and  just launched by themselves. Used to think it was only American culture that had this infantile need for a good guy and a bad guy and couldn't cope with real life being about shades of grey. Adam Curtis was quite persuasive about how it also went on closer to home:

 

Were you in a coma last week?

Israel manufactured a crisis in Sheik Jarrah and compounded it with the attack on Al Asqa Mosque. The rockets attacks are legitimate  response to ethnic cleansing under international law and under any sense of non racist reasonableness. There is no both sides here, no one side is ethnic cleansing and one side is resisting.

Also @Pato some nice Curtis praxis here

[John Lambies Doos]

Were you in a coma last week?
Israel manufactured a crisis in Sheik Jarrah and compounded it with the attack on Al Asqa Mosque. The rockets attacks are legitimate  response to ethnic cleansing under international law and under any sense of non racist reasonableness. There is no both sides here, no one side is ethnic cleansing and one side is resisting.
Also [mention=75884]Pato[/mention] some nice Curtis praxis here

I have to agree with you here, whilst I don't condone violence, the Palestinians are 100% the victims here.

[Detournement]

19 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

23 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Were you in a coma last week?
Israel manufactured a crisis in Sheik Jarrah and compounded it with the attack on Al Asqa Mosque. The rockets attacks are legitimate  response to ethnic cleansing under international law and under any sense of non racist reasonableness. There is no both sides here, no one side is ethnic cleansing and one side is resisting.
Also [mention=75884]Pato[/mention] some nice Curtis praxis here

I have to agree with you here, whilst I don't condone violence, the Palestinians are 100% the victims here.

The key is to understand what qualifies as violence.

Gaza has been under siege for 14 years. The median age in Gaza is 18. The majority of Palestinians in Gaza have only ever known the blockade and the misery it brings. 2 million people in an area the size of Midlothian. That's constant violence.

Palestinians  who live in the West Bank occupied territories are subject to constant military checks and harassment. They also have to deal with right wing extremist settlers supported by the army and police. This is violence

Palestinians who live in Israel live under Apartheid conditions and are legally second class citizens. Even Humans Rights Watch now acknowledge this. Violence again.

Rockets are mouse on an elephant on the scale of the violence organised by Likud.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Detournement

[Detournement]

Anshel Pfeffer is a Zionist but this sums up recent events.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Detournement

[Detournement]

A good thread about how Palestinians in the West Bank are humiliated on a daily basis.

[HalfCutNinja]

9 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The key is to understand what qualifies as violence.

Gaza has been under siege for 14 years. The median age in Gaza is 18. The majority of Palestinians in Gaza have only ever known the blockade and the misery it brings. 2 million people in an area the size of Midlothian. That's constant violence.

Palestinians  who live in the West Bank other occupied territories are subject to constant military checks and harassment. They also have to deal with right wing extremist settlers supported by the army and police. This is violence

Palestinians who live in Israel live under Apartheid conditions and are legally second class citizens. Even Humans Rights Watch now acknowledge this. Violence again.

Rockets are mouse on an elephant on the scale of the violence organised by Likud.

 

The most important thing to remember is twofold - Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian land for 54 years. Under all forms of international law recognised by every country on earth armed resistance to illegal occupation is 100% legal.

In the simplest terms if Uganda invaded Scotland tomorrow and illegally occupied it, its completely legal to walk up to a Ugandan soldier on Sauciehall Street and shoot them in the head. 100% legal, cannot be prosecuted for it by any court in the world. 

What the Palestinians are doing is resisting an illegal occupation of their territory that has been going on over half a century. 

 

There is a slight caveat that all war has to be just and proportional to be legal. Their struggle is a defensive one so its clearly just, and in response to illegal occupation. The scale of the force they use is also proportional. 

However, it becomes a little more shaky when you are targeting civilian areas. Now they could say well its all we've got, just some crude rockets, can't really target them, can't see inside Israel anyway its not like they've got satellites, we're aiming for military targets if it hits a civilian area its an accident. 

But this is the only way in which any legitimate questions whatsoever can be asked of the Palestinians, and pales into insignificance when you compare to a nuclear armed state with the most sophisticated targeting technology on earth that regularly targets ambulances, schools, hospitals, police stations, refugee camps, civilian housing, media centres and every form of infrastructure from roads to water pumping stations etc in defence of its illegal occupation.

There very much are good guys and bad guys here and it really is pretty black and white.

As for Hamas, you have to remember they're elected. So writing them off as illegitimate or terrorists is as ridiculous as writing off Sinn Fein cause of the IRA. Hamas also has accepted the existence of Israel within 67 borders, as every legal scholar on earth has also indicated is the correct legal position. The only people for whom this isn't acceptable is Israel. 

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, HalfCutNinja said:

The most important thing to remember is twofold - Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian land for 54 years. Under all forms of international law recognised by every country on earth armed resistance to illegal occupation is 100% legal.

In the simplest terms if Uganda invaded Scotland tomorrow and illegally occupied it, its completely legal to walk up to a Ugandan soldier on Sauciehall Street and shoot them in the head. 100% legal, cannot be prosecuted for it by any court in the world. 

What the Palestinians are doing is resisting an illegal occupation of their territory that has been going on over half a century. 

 

There is a slight caveat that all war has to be just and proportional to be legal. Their struggle is a defensive one so its clearly just, and in response to illegal occupation. The scale of the force they use is also proportional. 

However, it becomes a little more shaky when you are targeting civilian areas. Now they could say well its all we've got, just some crude rockets, can't really target them, can't see inside Israel anyway its not like they've got satellites, we're aiming for military targets if it hits a civilian area its an accident. 

But this is the only way in which any legitimate questions whatsoever can be asked of the Palestinians, and pales into insignificance when you compare to a nuclear armed state with the most sophisticated targeting technology on earth that regularly targets ambulances, schools, hospitals, police stations, refugee camps, civilian housing, media centres and every form of infrastructure from roads to water pumping stations etc in defence of its illegal occupation.

There very much are good guys and bad guys here and it really is pretty black and white.

As for Hamas, you have to remember they're elected. So writing them off as illegitimate or terrorists is as ridiculous as writing off Sinn Fein cause of the IRA. Hamas also has accepted the existence of Israel within 67 borders, as every legal scholar on earth has also indicated is the correct legal position. The only people for whom this isn't acceptable is Israel. 

Totally agree with all of this. You have set the situation out perfectly.

I was just providing context to the concept of violence. Israel creates these flashpoints every few years but the Palestinian people are constantly suffering due to apartheid settler colonialist violence. 

[HalfCutNinja]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Totally agree with all of this. You have set the situation out perfectly.

I was just providing context to the concept of violence. Israel creates these flashpoints every few years but the Palestinian people are constantly suffering due to apartheid settler colonialist violence. 

 

Absolutely, this is completely intentional and planned by Israel. Things had been too quiet for a while and they wanted to advance with their landgrab and genocide of the Palestinians, so they had to manufacture this. It also is great for Netanyahu who is in all sorts of trouble just now. Could be very like the Falklands for Thatcher for him.

If you'll remember the 2nd Intifada was sparked, deliberately, by Ariel Sharon visiting Temple Mount. This is a guy who was recognised widely as a war criminal for his actions in the massacres at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in the early 80's when Christian militias were allowed to go in and spend 2 days massacring Palestinians. Sharon was responsible for the Israeli forces in the area and had to resign when it emerged he has prevented them from stopping it happening and even facilitated it. 

He also had said many incredibly incendiary and disgustingly racist things about the Palestinians, and taken part personally in the murder of countless Palestinian civilians as part of Unit 101. To Palestinians this guy was the number one most hated person on earth. An absolute monster and prolific war criminal who was personally responsible for the murder of god only knows how many Palestinians and indirectly for the murder of many many more. 

He became PM in maybe 1999, in 2000 or 2001 his first act basically was to visit Temple Mount. They knew the outrage this would provoke, as to Palestinians he was like Hitler, and when the Palestinians inevitably reacted the Israelis used this as planned as a pretence for a military campaign to increase their landgrab, destablise the political leadership in Gaza and kill as many people as they feasibly could.

Then of course this allowed them to build the 'Peace' Wall, which really was the landgrab wall. 

What's happened this time is the exact same. Identical. They sent troops into to attack worshippers in Al Aqsa during Ramadan, knowing this would provoke a reaction, allowing them to massively over-react militarily, kill as many as possible, decimate the infrastructure and destabilise the political leadership who look like they may have been on the verge of a breakthrough, and maybe save Netanyahu at the same time. Its all planned and all deliberate.

[Wee-Bey]

Doing the 'both sides' thing and pretending that this is some really big complex issue that only I, the great politics understander can grasp.

'diD YOu KNow thAT HAmAs FirE RocKEtS aNd gET MonEy FRom iRAn ????'

[BigDoddyKane]

A change of leadership on both sides would have more chance of sorting it out, I dont think the younger generation on either side is represented by any of them. They have all had years and done nothing for either of them. Hopefully they can create something new that works for them 

Edited May 15, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

 

 

What's happened this time is the exact same. Identical. They sent troops into to attack worshippers in Al Aqsa during Ramadan, knowing this would provoke a reaction, allowing them to massively over-react militarily, kill as many as possible, decimate the infrastructure and destabilise the political leadership who look like they may have been on the verge of a breakthrough, and maybe save Netanyahu at the same time. Its all planned and all deliberate.

I think there is a difference this time though .Previously the violence was under the control of the military and police, now settlers and right wing extremists are driving the violence. That suits Netenyahu and Jewish Power but it's a long term disaster for Israel. 

You mentioned Sinn Fein/IRA. In 1995 loyalists could put tens of thousands on men in the street on Drumcree, 25 years later they are a busted flush. That's the only route of this.

 

[Lex]

Fair to say this thread lived up to expectations.
Colour me surprised there’s not similar threads on this board about the treatment of the Rohingya or the Uighur’s or any other number of oppressed groups throughout the world (not).
It’s difficult to fit subtle anti-semitism into those threads, after all.

[HalfCutNinja]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I think there is a difference this time though .Previously the violence was under the control of the military and police, now settlers and right wing extremists are driving the violence. That suits Netenyahu and Jewish Power but it's a long term disaster for Israel. 

You mentioned Sinn Fein/IRA. In 1995 loyalists could put tens of thousands on men in the street on Drumcree, 25 years later they are a busted flush. That's the only route of this.

 

That's a decent point. The settlers are fanatics, absolute zealots, the most hardline racists of the lot and genuinely if allowed to would put every Palestinian in a gas chamber tomorrow. And they have been emboldened by this regime, like you see all over the West just now here too the right-wing nutters feel emboldened by Brexit.

That's a good point about the next generation, like a lot of things climate for example the best chance is the next generation being more progressive than the last. 

[Wee-Bey]

7 minutes ago, Lex said:

Fair to say this thread lived up to expectations.
Colour me surprised there’s not similar threads on this board about the treatment of the Rohingya or the Uighur’s or any other number of oppressed groups throughout the world (not).
It’s difficult to fit subtle anti-semitism into those threads, after all.

Why don't you highlight the antisemitism and report it to the mods then ?

Surely the correct course of action rather than some dumb whataboutery ?

[AFCDannyFTH]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

Stephen Pollard is 99% bile.

I've never really understood the notion that being a public figure means you can't have an opinion on anything. Any time any celebrity comments on a political situation or current event, they are bombarded with messages telling them to stick to their own industry. They are as entitled to share their views as anyone is.

[AFCDannyFTH]

13 minutes ago, Lex said:

Fair to say this thread lived up to expectations.
Colour me surprised there’s not similar threads on this board about the treatment of the Rohingya or the Uighur’s or any other number of oppressed groups throughout the world (not).
It’s difficult to fit subtle anti-semitism into those threads, after all.

Do you consider criticism of Israel to be antisemitic? 

[Lex]

House!

[Detournement]

Just now, AFCDannyFTH said:

I've never really understood the notion that being a public figure means you can't have an opinion on anything. Any time any celebrity comments on a political situation or current event, they are bombarded with messages telling them to stick to their own industry. They are as entitled to share their views as anyone is.

Pollard's reaction is clearly shame.

When he sees a Palestinian flag he thinks of ethnic cleansing.