ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Corbyn is damned here whatever he does. The MSM are repeating the claims without any facts checking and their actions are legitimised by people like Tom Watson stirring the pot. Even the most reasoned challenge by Corbyn would be shot down in flames and give the media an excuse to increase the exposure. I can think of quite a few former Labour leaders who would not have sat back and quitely accepted this damnable situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I can think of quite a few former Labour leaders who would not have sat back and quitely accepted this damnable situation.Do you think this would work though?The blairite (for want of a better term) wing of the party would all leave the party, and Corbyn would be attacked even more in the media (if that's possible). Genuine anti Semitism exists, so this is a very difficult problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, pandarilla said: Do you think this would work though? The blairite (for want of a better term) wing of the party would all leave the party, and Corbyn would be attacked even more in the media (if that's possible). Genuine anti Semitism exists, so this is a very difficult problem. Does it exist amongst the labour rank and file or anyone in the party for that matter? Nobody seems to have come forward with much evidence so far. Hard to imagine the likes of John Smith (the best PM we never had) just accepting and putting up with such accusations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Naz Shah posted the suggestion that Jewish Israelis should be rounded up and transported to America. When it emerged she was suspended from the party pretty swiftly though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Momentum released quite a good video the other day about the use of anti-semitism in conspiracy theories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 25 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Momentum released quite a good video the other day about the use of anti-semitism in conspiracy theories. https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1101143739588923392 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Does it exist amongst the labour rank and file or anyone in the party for that matter? Nobody seems to have come forward with much evidence so far. Hard to imagine the likes of John Smith (the best PM we never had) just accepting and putting up with such accusations.John Smith's legacy has become a bit of an exaggeration though. I agree that he would've been a far better leader than what followed, but he'd have made his own mistakes. It's impossible to know how he would've handled this. I'd love to know what Blair/Campbell would advise Corbyn (if they were genuinely trying to help him, obviously). They were very good at the old pr business. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) For as long I can remember the Labour Party (the leadership anyway) has leaned towards the Israeli side of the conflict and views like and Williamson's (& Corbyn's) were by and large tolerated however now there is a Labour leader who leans towards the Palestinian view of the conflict IMO it has transformed into a witchhunt of people who hold these views, and at who's behest - the Tory Party, Daily Mail & pro-Israeli tweeters. Edited March 2, 2019 by btb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, pandarilla said: John Smith's legacy has become a bit of an exaggeration though. I agree that he would've been a far better leader than what followed, but he'd have made his own mistakes. It's impossible to know how he would've handled this. I'd love to know what Blair/Campbell would advise Corbyn (if they were genuinely trying to help him, obviously). They were very good at the old pr business. I agree about John Smith being wildly over lauded in retrospect. Remember him totally getting tied in knots when questioned on economics in an interview. Being a nice man does not necessarily make you an effective politician. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 1 hour ago, ICTJohnboy said: Does it exist amongst the labour rank and file or anyone in the party for that matter? Nobody seems to have come forward with much evidence so far. Hard to imagine the likes of John Smith (the best PM we never had) just accepting and putting up with such accusations. Politically every bit as right wing as Blair. Another guy who should never have joined a socialist party. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Politically every bit as right wing as Blair. Another guy who should never have joined a socialist party. Very surprised to hear you say that. Smith was a totally different kettle of fish from Blair. Maybe you should refresh your memory with some light reading here : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/remembering-john-smith-20-years-on-what-would-his-government-have-looked-like-9357017.html Quote There would have been differences as to whose impact would have been political rather than economic. When Blair was opposition leader, he and Brown agreed to make a commitment to stick to Conservative spending plans for their first two years in office – an adroit piece of politics that caused a great of tension within the Labour government. It is highly unlikely that Smith would have made that same undertaking. Not doing so would have cost votes, but saved the incoming government unnecessary hassle. As shadow chancellor, Gordon Brown considered introducing a 50p top rate of income tax, but was overruled by Blair. Smith would have agreed to it: he proposed the same when he was shadow chancellor before the 1992 election. Brought up in a small town in western Scotland, where observing Sunday as the Lord’s Day was treated very seriously, Smith had an almost moralistic view about whether the wealthy should pay tax. He once said: “One should shoulder that obligation as part of one’s citizenship and be proud of it.” Smith also supported introducing a national minimum before it was Labour Party policy, when craft unions opposed it because it would erode their differentials. It is unlikely that he would have opted for the politically astute idea of devolving the responsibility for setting the minimum wage to a specially created quango. Probably, under a Smith government, the rate would have been set by politicians, and would have been higher than it was in the Blair years. The government would then have been open to attack whenever a firm closed down or shed jobs because its management said that they could not afford to pay the minimum rate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 22 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Very surprised to hear you say that. Smith was a totally different kettle of fish from Blair. Maybe you should refresh your memory with some light reading here : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/remembering-john-smith-20-years-on-what-would-his-government-have-looked-like-9357017.html I spent a couple of hours one-on-one with Smith. My views of his politics are based on what we did discuss and what he simply refused to discuss. Far more illuminating than any public utterances which were always very measured and carefully crafted. He was the consummate politician. He was an incredible communicator; we visited a factory in Brechin and his ability to connect with a wide range of people was impressive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 38 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I spent a couple of hours one-on-one with Smith. My views of his politics are based on what we did discuss and what he simply refused to discuss. Far more illuminating than any public utterances which were always very measured and carefully crafted. He was the consummate politician. He was an incredible communicator; we visited a factory in Brechin and his ability to connect with a wide range of people was impressive. My brother knew him during his Glasgow Uni days. They will both be turning in their graves at the thought of him being described as, "as right wing as Blair." Personally I wouldn't have thought that possible. I'm also pretty certain that Britain, under Smith's leadership, would not have become embroiled in Bush's war in Iraq and as a result would have been a better place than it is currently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 My brother knew him during his Glasgow Uni days. They will both be turning in their graves at the thought of him being described as, "as right wing as Blair." Personally I wouldn't have thought that possible. I'm also pretty certain that Britain, under Smith's leadership, would not have become embroiled in Bush's war in Iraq and as a result would have been a better place than it is currently.The difference between him and Blair was that Smith may have been a right winger but he had principles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Granny Danger said: Politically every bit as right wing as Blair. Another guy who should never have joined a socialist party. 51 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: The difference between him and Blair was that Smith may have been a right winger but he had principles. Still can't believe there are posters on here who believe John Smith was right wing. More light reading here : https://www.leftfutures.org/2014/05/rembering-john-smith-and-how-different-things-might-have-been/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Granny Danger said: Politically every bit as right wing as Blair. Another guy who should never have joined a socialist party. Absolute horse shit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said: Absolute horse shit. Good strong argument; needs to be written on the side of a bus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 40 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Still can't believe there are posters on here who believe John Smith was right wing. More light reading here : https://www.leftfutures.org/2014/05/rembering-john-smith-and-how-different-things-might-have-been/ Maybe you’re so right wing you think Smith was a raving communist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 49 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Maybe you’re so right wing you think Smith was a raving communist. No, I don't think that at all, but maybe it would be fair to describe you as such. I described Smith as the best PM we never had, to which you replied he was "as right wing as Blair". I would call that a pretty damning criticism. But then in your next post you describe him thus : "always very measured and carefully crafted. He was the consummate politician. He was an incredible communicator; his ability to connect with a wide range of people was impressive" Must have been an incredible communicator if he managed to establish some kind of communication with you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I've always held to the view that the posthumous projection of a John Smith premiership probably far exceeds what the reality would have been.Sometimes we Scots are seduced by 'serious politicians' who trail a strong whiff of Presbyterian rectitude when the truth is they are no great shakes - Gordon Brown anyone ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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