Geopolitics in the 2020s.

[Detournement]

22 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

It's neither distasteful or ludicrous.

Hong Kong has a large movement for self-rule. The Chinese government has made it impossible for that to be represented in the government.

Scotland has a large movement for self-rule. This would be like the UK government making it impossible for that to be represented in government.

I think the difference is the context of 100 years of colonial occupation by a hostile foreign power. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

12 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I think the difference is the context of 100 years of colonial occupation by a hostile foreign power. 

How is that relevant to the current experience of the people of Hong Kong?

'We can't choose our own government and our legal system is being over-run by an authoritarian regime with no democratic mandate whatsoever against our will and any objection to this is treated as sedition, but it's fair enough because of historical context.'

Is that how you would see it if you lived in Hong Kong?

Also, how do you suppose Hong Kong ever originally became connected to the rest of China in the first place. Think carefully, now.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Wee-Bey]

[SANTAN]

I'm currently imagining some Scottish bloke talking to someone from Hong Kong with his Union Jack listening to his plight and being all like

"Aye that's just like us" 

Not that it really needs to be said but obviously I'm not pro CCP and wish Hong Kong citizens the best of luck with their cause. 

[SANTAN]

Honk Kong when the sports stars lose and Chinese when they win. Crying shame so it is.

[Guest TheJTS98]

2 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I'm currently imagining some Scottish bloke talking to someone from Hong Kong with his Union Jack listening to his plight and being all like

"Aye that's just like us" 

Not that it really needs to be said but obviously I'm not pro CCP and wish Hong Kong citizens the best of luck with their cause. 

Perhaps you need to re-read some posts.

I did not say the situation in Hong Kong and Scotland were the same. I said they would be were the UK government dictating who could and could not be elected to govern in the Scottish Parliament. This is not the case. It's known as an illustration.

Unless I have missed a recent significant constitutional amendment in the UK.

 

[Detournement]

33 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

How is that relevant to the current experience of the people of Hong Kong?

'We can't choose our own government and our legal system is being over-run by an authoritarian regime with no democratic mandate whatsoever against our will and any objection to this is treated as sedition, but it's fair enough because of historical context.'

Is that how you would see it if you lived in Hong Kong?

Also, how do you suppose Hong Kong ever originally became connected to the rest of China in the first place. Think carefully, now.

Connected to rest of China? It's about 20 miles off the coast of Shenzhen. That's not any more imperialism than Mull being part of Scotland.

The facts are that Hong Kong needs to be decolonised and that protestors waving British flags and meeting with the likes of Ted Cruz are siding with foreign powers who are responsible for the deaths of a huge amount of Chinese people between the first Opium War in 1839 and the Nixon administration normalising relations. There is a lot of ignorance about western atrocities in China in the West but to the Chinese it's as fresh as the public memory of Nazism here. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

28 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Connected to rest of China? It's about 20 miles off the coast of Shenzhen. That's not any more imperialism than Mull being part of Scotland.

The facts are that Hong Kong needs to be decolonised and that protestors waving British flags and meeting with the likes of Ted Cruz are siding with foreign powers who are responsible for the deaths of a huge amount of Chinese people between the first Opium War in 1839 and the Nixon administration normalising relations. There is a lot of ignorance about western atrocities in China in the West but to the Chinese it's as fresh as the public memory of Nazism here. 

Ignored my question there.

'We can't choose our own government and our legal system is being over-run by an authoritarian regime with no democratic mandate whatsoever against our will and any objection to this is treated as sedition, but it's fair enough because of historical context.'

Would this be your view were you a resident of Hong Kong?

Interesting that you say Hong Kong needs to be decolonised. Why? And what does that mean?

To the Chinese Communist Party it seems to mean removing the right of the citizens of Hong Kong to any kind of self-determination and also removing their right to protest about the removal of their right to self-determination or to even write newspaper articles or social media posts critical of it.

Explain to me how this is some kind of necessary 'decolonisation' that needs to happen. Would you like this to happen where you live?

Also, in reference to your point about foreign flags and meeting foreign politicians, do you not think an appeal to the international community and news cycle is understandable in the face of an authoritarian regime giving them no say in the political or legal running of Hong Kong, and that can disappear them off to the Chinese mainland for objecting? Seems an understandable response to me. China is allowing them no representation and no say, so they need to look elsewhere for it.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

All the 'democracy' protestors are linked to CIA fronts like the NED and Radio Free Asia. I would have no time for them if I lived in Hong Kong especially after all the reports of violent racist attacks. 

How can you remove the right of Hong Kong citizens to self determination when they never actually had any? All the people flying the colonial flag don't seem that bothered about 99 years of London imposed governor generals. 

I would like to see all the American military and spies based in the UK expelled so yes decolonisation here would be class but you can't compare our position within the American Empire to the Chinese experience of imperialism over 130 years leading to hundreds of millions of deaths. 

 

[Guest TheJTS98]

6 minutes ago, Detournement said:

All the 'democracy' protestors are linked to CIA fronts like the NED and Radio Free Asia. I would have no time for them if I lived in Hong Kong especially after all the reports of violent racist attacks. 

How can you remove the right of Hong Kong citizens to self determination when they never actually had any? All the people flying the colonial flag don't seem that bothered about 99 years of London imposed governor generals. 

I would like to see all the American military and spies based in the UK expelled so yes decolonisation here would be class but you can't compare our position within the American Empire to the Chinese experience of imperialism over 130 years leading to hundreds of millions of deaths. 

 

You're still avoiding the issue.

Would you be cool with the UK government telling Scotland it could only elect a government of people it had hand-picked and which would follow their lead? Would you be cool with any public objection to this being illegal? Would you be cool with one of the punishments of this being the possibility of disappearing into England to a legal system where you might not be heard of again for some time? Would you be ok with a social media post criticising this being enough to get you the clink?

I rather doubt you would. Yet you think it's ok for the people of Hong Kong in 2021. In fact, you seem to think it needs to happen.

I'm not sure why you are defending the indefensible here.

ETA: What does it tell you about the reality of what China is doing in Hong Kong when, as you mention, a significant number of people wave the flag of a former colonial ruler from thousands of miles away and view that as preferable to the smothering embrace of The Party.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, TheJTS98 said:

You're still avoiding the issue.

Would you be cool with the UK government telling Scotland it could only elect a government of people it had hand-picked and which would follow their lead? Would you be cool with any public objection to this being illegal? Would you be cool with one of the punishments of this being the possibility of disappearing into England to a legal system where you might not be heard of again for some time? Would you be ok with a social media post criticising this being enough to get you the clink?

I rather doubt you would. Yet you think it's ok for the people of Hong Kong in 2021. In fact, you seem to think it needs to happen.

I'm not sure why you are defending the indefensible here.

ETA: What does it tell you about the reality of what China is doing in Hong Kong when, as you mention, a significant number of people wave the flag of a former colonial ruler from thousands of miles away and view that as preferable to the smothering embrace of The Party.

I don't believe that Hong Kong and Scotland are comparable. Personally I would be happy never to vote again if we could have governments which raised wages and lowered poverty. 

I don't believe protesting and waving flags should bring an automatic assumption of good intentions. If your leaders are meeting a lunatic like Ted Cruz then the protests lose all legitimacy.

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Detournement

[Guest TheJTS98]

19 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I don't believe that Hong Kong and Scotland are comparable. Personally I would be happy never to vote again if we could have governments which raised wages and lowered poverty. 

I don't protesting and waving flags should bring an automatic assumption of good intentions. If your leaders are meeting a lunatic like Ted Cruz then the protests lose all legitimacy.

 

Why not?

Seems to me you're basically saying that you don't think the people of Hong Kong are entitled to the freedoms that you enjoy and that they should just accept having one of the world's most open and successful cities turned into a colony of an authoritarian bully intent on diminishing freedom in public life to the lowest possible point.

And the status quo only carries on until 2047. After that, HK loses its special status and its residents fall under the same Great Firewall restrictions as someone living in the rest of China. This is a steady journey to less freedom.

Why you would think that is acceptable is utterly beyond me.

You seem to be fixating on Ted Cruz. I'm not sure why.  I see nothing unusual in people not being given a voice at home making contacts abroad and trying to get on foreign tv to be heard and appeal for help. It's standard pracitise when dealing with an authoritarian regime. It's also standard practise for the authoritarian regime to try and paint this as foreign collusion, traitors etc etc etc. See Russia, Myanmar, Thailand, etc etc etc.

It's an interesting view you have. You're entitled to not value the concept of human rights, and you're entitled to not value the rule of law or freedom of expression and speech or the idea of freedom of political choice and self-determination. Not often you see somebody explicitly state those as their positions as you are though. Also very rare these days for anyone to publicly advertise holding the view that rights should apply to people who live in some places but not to others. Fair enough.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

11 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

Why not?

 

Because Scotland hasn't been occupied for a century by a hostile foreign power in recent history.

If you look at the history of Reconstruction in the USA or the occupations of Germany and Japan then there are precedents for placing political restrictions on populations which have been under the influence of hostile powers.

You are talking as if Hong Kong has long been a bastion of democracy when the UK only set up elections 18 months before the lease was up.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Detournement

[Guest TheJTS98]

10 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Because Scotland hasn't been occupied for a century by a hostile foreign power for a century in recent history.

If you look at the history of Reconstruction in the USA or the occupations of Germany and Japan then there are precedents for placing political restrictions on populations which have been under the influence of hostile powers.

 

Germany and Japan at that time were on their knees having just been invaded and were in large part smouldering ruins having been respectively nuked and firebombed. That's quite the comparison with 2021 Hong Kong. And the restrictions on those countries were imposed by outsiders, victorious foreign powers, not by someone claiming to be their legitimate and natural government.

And it doesn't answer the questions I've asked you. I see now that you will not answer them. I suspect because you can't without just saying 'I don't believe the people of Hong Kong are entitled to the basic freedoms I enjoy'.

Very strange that out of some desire to defend The Party, you'll see people actually defend the dismantling of the rule of law, the removal of free expression, and a denial of basic political choice. All of this is being done by an outfit that does not have and has never had a democratic mandate.

And you're wrong that this is about Hong Kong being 'occupied by a hostile power'. It's just bringing Hong Kong into line with the rest of China. After 2047 Hong Kong goes behind The Great Firewall like everyone else in China. This foot on the neck of basic rights is a sticking plaster till then.

Unity, stability, unity, stability. It's a fiction, and one that will bring about the end of The Party.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

Germany and Japan at that time were on their knees having just been invaded and were in large part smouldering ruins having been respectively nuked and firebombed. That's quite the comparison with 2021 Hong Kong.

And it doesn't answer the questions I've asked you. I see now that you will not answer them. I suspect because you can't without just saying 'I don't believe the people of Hong Kong are entitled to the basic freedoms I enjoy'.

Very strange that out of some desire to defend The Party, you'll see people actually defend the dismantling of the rule of law, the removal of free expression, and a denial of basic political choice. All of this is being done by an outfit that does not have and has never had a democratic mandate.

And you're wrong that this is about Hong Kong being 'occupied by a hostile power'. It's just bringing Hong Kong into line with the rest of China. Unity, stability, unity, stability. It's a fiction, and one that will bring about the end of The Party.

What freedoms exactly do I enjoy that people in Hong Kong don't? There is no political choice in the UK, the one time we had one in my lifetime was throttled by the state and corporate media.

Hong Kong is part of China, I don't see why it should be any I different and it definitely shouldn't be used as a staging post for American disruption.

And it is obviously all about fantasists thinking HK should really be British. You are not greeting about Hainan.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Detournement

[Guest TheJTS98]

13 minutes ago, Detournement said:

What freedoms exactly do I enjoy that people in Hong Kong don't? There is no political choice in the UK, the one time we had one in my lifetime was throttled by the state and corporate media.

Hong Kong is part of China, I don't see why it should be any I different and it definitely shouldn't be used as a staging post for American disruption.

You can vote for a party of your choosing to be the government.

You can be critical of your government online in a Facebook post, or in a letter to a newspaper, or you can criticise them in a blog, or on a radio phone-in. You can even write a book about them being c***s and get it published and have it sold in shops. All at no risk to your safety or liberty. Your post there accused the British state of throttling the will of the people. Clink for that in China.

If you support Scottish independence, or any other cause, you can go on a march to show that support. If you disagree with a law, you can protest against it openly.

If you are arrested, you will be treated according to the rule of law. Your family will know where are you are and why you're being held.

It's remarkable that anybody would defend The Party. It's the easiest thing in the world for China to do what authoritarian regimes always do with dissent and just blame it on meddling foreigners. But it's hard to see a society where people would accept what is happening. And, for all your focus on the protests and Ted Cruz etc, polling through that whole episode consistently showed that a much higher proportion of the HK population backed democratic aims than backed those protests specifically. It's disingenuous to continue to portray Ted Cruz as the face of dissent in Hong Kong.

Most people in Hong Kong don't even want independence. They want to be able to live freely. For some reason, assorted West Is Bad types are cool with The Party continuing to turn their city into something from a grim novel.

You're basically saying you're ok with people in Hong Kong living under increasingly restricted conditions because you like criticising Britain's colonial past. That's bizarre ethics. You're advocating punishing young people in Hong Kong for something they had nothing to do with and that happened over a century before their birth.

Edited March 6, 2021 by TheJTS98

[NotThePars]

3 hours ago, TheJTS98 said:

You can vote for a party of your choosing to be the government.

You can be critical of your government online in a Facebook post, or in a letter to a newspaper, or you can criticise them in a blog, or on a radio phone-in. You can even write a book about them being c***s and get it published and have it sold in shops. All at no risk to your safety or liberty. Your post there accused the British state of throttling the will of the people. Clink for that in China.

If you support Scottish independence, or any other cause, you can go on a march to show that support. If you disagree with a law, you can protest against it openly.

If you are arrested, you will be treated according to the rule of law. Your family will know where are you are and why you're being held.

It's remarkable that anybody would defend The Party. It's the easiest thing in the world for China to do what authoritarian regimes always do with dissent and just blame it on meddling foreigners. But it's hard to see a society where people would accept what is happening. And, for all your focus on the protests and Ted Cruz etc, polling through that whole episode consistently showed that a much higher proportion of the HK population backed democratic aims than backed those protests specifically. It's disingenuous to continue to portray Ted Cruz as the face of dissent in Hong Kong.

Most people in Hong Kong don't even want independence. They want to be able to live freely. For some reason, assorted West Is Bad types are cool with The Party continuing to turn their city into something from a grim novel.

You're basically saying you're ok with people in Hong Kong living under increasingly restricted conditions because you like criticising Britain's colonial past. That's bizarre ethics. You're advocating punishing young people in Hong Kong for something they had nothing to do with and that happened over a century before their birth.

This post really just reads like "thank god your chains are invisible".

[dorlomin]

Demographics will be the big issue in Europe and East Asia in the coming decades. 

 

 

But then again they will be huge in part of Africa where the expansion will be a huge challenge. FYI for anyone who prefers their thinking to be data driven rather than outcome driver.

[Guest TheJTS98]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

This post really just reads like "thank god your chains are invisible".

Depends how you view things. Nobody is saying any other system is perfect, and it's frustrating when people always frame it that way. It's like when Celtic or Rangers fans respond to criticism by saying 'But what about them?'.

I'm not a fan of the continued existence of the UK state. I'm certainly no fan of American foreign policy. I agree many Western countries have in the past done and do now do bad things. I'm not even a fan of capitalism.

But none of this changes the fact that what China is doing in Hong Kong is appalling. The kind of conversation we're having here online is illegal in their context.

But because people like to see it as something you need to pick a side on, we get glib responses like we see on this thread. It's a very bizarre thing to see people who probably do have genuine empathy and kindness be prepared to just write-off the real living conditions of millions of people to have a dig at Britain's colonial past.

Basically saying, 'We don't care about the oppression they live under, Britain's colonialism was bad'. It makes no sense.

No doubt we'll have similar voices if/when China eventually invades (militarily or economically) Taiwan and removes their existing freedoms too. But what about The West... It's such backwards thinking. Also strangely ignores that China's current policies share an awful lot of the ideas from the worst era of Britain's colonialism. Just done in a more modern way using tech instead of ships.

Edited March 7, 2021 by TheJTS98

[vikingTON]

Quote

Also strangely ignores that China's current policies share an awful lot of the ideas from the worst era of Britain's colonialism. 

When your bête noire CCP rock up with a bunch of gunboats off Arran, declare sovereignty over unsuspecting locals and lock them into the Chinese-controlled opium market indefinitely then you'll have a valid point there champ. Until then no dice for you.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by vikingTON