Seven years on

[BigDoddyKane]

On 13/10/2021 at 21:39, LongTimeLurker said:

Wanted it to be over with a decisive outcome one way or the other more than anything else back in 2014 to get back to a politics that doesn't revolve around competing nationalisms as not hugely fussed either way as long as EU membership was still involved and find the zealots on both sides deeply off-putting. Doubt there's any chance of normal politics any time soon after the Brexit vote went the wrong way and Boris went full UKIP with the Tory party.

Im for independence but agree, the next indyref2 I hope its not too long away so normal day to day politics occurs again and we can get on with sorting things that make a real difference to people lives

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[GTG_03]

Seven years on... thankfully we voted no. Otherwise we could've been out of the EU and struggling to make trade deals, supermarket shelves would've been empty and we would have cut ourselves off from our biggest trading partners. 

Thankfully we're still in the UK and not only that, we are leading the UK with a strong and respected devolved government.

Whatever happened to that Boris Johnson fella anyway...?

[BigDoddyKane]

It could be argued you wont get abettertime for indy2 than within the next 2 years, boris in power, tories, brexit, logistics issues all these things wont last forever, the risk of waiting too long is you get a leader whos not as disliked or even ilabour in power and brexit and logistics issue will have got better

 

whats the current polling for yes?

Edited October 16, 2021 by BigDoddyKane

[GTG_03]

23 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

It could be argued you wont get abettertime for indy2 than within the next 2 years, boris in power, tories, brexit, logistics issues all these things wont last forever, the risk of waiting too long is you get a leader whos not as disliked or even ilabour in power and brexit and logistics issue will have got better

 

whats the current polling for yes?

Yeah the next year or two is probably the best time to go for it. The yes da's/alba nutters would've had it last year mid covid and would've lost. Thankfully there's sensible folk in charge.

Haven't seen much polling recently, last I saw was 50/50, an excellent place for yes to start. The no side and the media will turn the fearmongering off the scale this time though, actually looking forward to some of the stories. 

[Zern]

3 hours ago, GTG_03 said:

Yeah the next year or two is probably the best time to go for it. The yes da's/alba nutters would've had it last year mid covid and would've lost. Thankfully there's sensible folk in charge.

Haven't seen much polling recently, last I saw was 50/50, an excellent place for yes to start. The no side and the media will turn the fearmongering off the scale this time though, actually looking forward to some of the stories. 

You've probably already encountered the 'arguments'; they will only be slight variations on existing nonsense. Usually accompanied by a palsied understanding of how the EU works.

I'm looking forward to it because there is no longer any economic case for staying locked into a Brexit Britain.

[Scott Steiner]

I voted No in 2014 because I value my British heritage.  I'd do so again.

The notion of splitting up the country sends a chill up my spine.

I think the 11% we won by in 2014 would be even larger if a 2nd referendum took place in the next 10 years (unlikely) as even more factors would be in favour of the Union.

The recent poll is an outlier and is a result of dodgy weighting.  Mark my words - the Union is safe.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

I voted No in 2014 because I value my British heritage.  I'd do so again.

The notion of splitting up the country sends a chill up my spine.

 

* Further splitting up the country. The process is well advanced. The union was broken up in the 1920s. Does this need to be pointed out to every alias you come up with?

[Scott Steiner]

On 10/10/2021 at 19:43, The_Kincardine said:

I ignore them because it is a piece of ignorant crap.

Great Britain became the successor state to the erstwhile kingdoms and Scotland and England in 1707 and, since then, we Scots have been at the heart of all matters political, economic, social and industrial and have helped shaped what GB - and then The UK - became over 3 centuries both for good and ill.

I admire the UN's 'self determination' idea and in a post-colonial world it helped many nations find their voice.  To apply it to Scotland, though is to show either ignorance of what we contributed 'in Union' or, in many cases, just blind hatred.  Moreover, given Scots' influence on GB and then The UK - and given the transit of people north and south - the idea of a simple demarcation from the Solway to the Tweed is to create a false distinction.  We're all one people and have been for centuries so to partition the UK can only be prompted by hatred or ignorance. It certainly isn't based on history nor on the idiotic notion of Scottish exceptionalism.

A  more telling (and more recent) idea from the UN is the right of every nation - such as ours - to maintain the integrity of its borders and to eschew small-minded and xenophobic attempts to divide us.  This trumps any idea of empty-headed self-determination and gives the right to any nation to clamp  down of partitionist movements.

Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

A fantastic post, Kincmeister.

The parts I liked most were regarding Scottish exceptionalism (the REAL pandemic), the obvious fact that we are one people, as well as a demarcation creating a false distinction.

The Scots were originally the people of Dalriada which spanned part of West Scotland and NI, and other Kingdoms straddled what we now call the border between us and England.  Most notably Strathclyde and Northumbria.

Scotland is a relatively recent concept.  The amount of movement across the landmasses of GB and Ireland has been beyond belief.

A hostile minority seem desperate to ditch our kith and kin in England, Wales and NI... it's really quite sad.  Not only that, but their sense of entitlement is so great that they want to keep asking the people again and again 'til they get the answer they want.

'We need a referendum in the next 2 years because Boris and Brexit will give us a chance!' - aye, coz that's really fair, eh?

[Antlion]

15 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

 

A hostile minority seem desperate to ditch our kith and kin in England, Wales and NI... it's really quite sad.  Not only that, but their sense of entitlement is so great that they want to keep asking the people again and again 'til they get the answer they want.

 

Like your hostile minority ditched our kith and kin in Europe? Btw well done on getting “kith and kin” in - really advertising that this isn’t your first time at the rodeo.

[Big Rider]

30 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

 

The Scots were originally the people of Dalriada which spanned part of West Scotland and NI, and other Kingdoms straddled what we now call the border between us and England.  Most notably Strathclyde and Northumbria.

Scotland is a relatively recent concept.  The amount of movement across the landmasses of GB and Ireland has been beyond belief.

A hostile minority seem desperate to ditch our kith and kin in England, Wales and NI... it's really quite sad.  Not only that, but their sense of entitlement is so great that they want to keep asking the people again and again 'til they get the answer they want.

Important items to note for the sake of clarity:

The Angles were originally from Germany, as were the Saxons. Europeans who joined the ancient Britons to help make up old England before those Viking Normans got in on the act.

You forgot to add that England is also a recently modern concept however, like Scotland, it’s a lot older than the UK.

You talk of movement across these islands “ beyond belief” and ignore our fellow Britons from Ireland when talking of kith and kin. They were part of Great Britain once but have since become independent. 


 

[Scott Steiner]

5 minutes ago, Big Rider said:

Important items to note for the sake of clarity:

The Angles were originally from Germany, as were the Saxons. Europeans who joined the ancient Britons to help make up old England before those Viking Normans got in on the act.

You forgot to add that England is also a recently modern concept however, like Scotland, it’s a lot older than the UK.

You talk of movement across these islands “ beyond belief” and ignore our fellow Britons from Ireland when talking of kith and kin. They were part of Great Britain once but have since become independent. 


 

Thanks for the reply BR.

What you say is of course true, but if you go far back enough, you can trace all of humanity back to Africa.. although that is by no means certain and serious doubt has been shed on that theory recently.

As you rightly say, like Scotland, England is indeed also a relatively modern concept.  My goal wasn't to define a 'people' by the length of time it has been on a patch of land, although that does indeed have something to do with it, but to exemplify that as the Kincmeister rightly says, a border from Gretna to Berwick would create a false distinction, especially when you consider the huge movement of people between all ancient kingdoms, British countries and Ireland over the centuries.

We just don't have this with Germany or other countries/areas of Europe, and we are physically separated by a natural sea border too.

We are largely the same linguistically, culturally and genetically.

I certainly don't ignore our Irish brethren when talking of kith and kin.  I'd love nothing more than for Ireland to join the Union.

[Billy Jean King]

Thanks for the reply BR.
What you say is of course true, but if you go far back enough, you can trace all of humanity back to Africa.. although that is by no means certain and serious doubt has been shed on that theory recently.
As you rightly say, like Scotland, England is indeed also a relatively modern concept.  My goal wasn't to define a 'people' by the length of time it has been on a patch of land, although that does indeed have something to do with it, but to exemplify that as the Kincmeister rightly says, a border from Gretna to Berwick would create a false distinction, especially when you consider the huge movement of people between all ancient kingdoms, British countries and Ireland over the centuries.
We just don't have this with Germany or other countries/areas of Europe, and we are physically separated by a natural sea border too.
We are largely the same linguistically, culturally and genetically.
I certainly don't ignore our Irish brethren when talking of kith and kin.  I'd love nothing more than for Ireland to join the Union.

The border exists today and has zero influence on "Keith and kin" nor will it after independence. It will be the same notional line you accurately described. I fail to see how self governance would affect anything you mention in your above post. The people on either side of the notional line will still be exactly the same historically , culturally and ethnically as they are today. It's total spurious, heartstring tugging emotional nonsense which is usually the sort of thing the Yoons accuse the Nats of. Oh and it's as you say a national line in the ground that folk will be free to cross not the reinstatement of Hadrian's wall !

[ICTJohnboy]

39 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

 

I certainly don't ignore our Irish brethren when talking of kith and kin.  I'd love nothing more than for Ireland to join the Union.

 

Well that's never going to happen. Do you know any Irish people who would want it to happen?

Ireland are already in a Union, and will hopefully soon be joined by Scotland.

[Scott Steiner]

20 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

37 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

Thanks for the reply BR.
What you say is of course true, but if you go far back enough, you can trace all of humanity back to Africa.. although that is by no means certain and serious doubt has been shed on that theory recently.
As you rightly say, like Scotland, England is indeed also a relatively modern concept.  My goal wasn't to define a 'people' by the length of time it has been on a patch of land, although that does indeed have something to do with it, but to exemplify that as the Kincmeister rightly says, a border from Gretna to Berwick would create a false distinction, especially when you consider the huge movement of people between all ancient kingdoms, British countries and Ireland over the centuries.
We just don't have this with Germany or other countries/areas of Europe, and we are physically separated by a natural sea border too.
We are largely the same linguistically, culturally and genetically.
I certainly don't ignore our Irish brethren when talking of kith and kin.  I'd love nothing more than for Ireland to join the Union.

The border exists today and has zero influence on "Keith and kin" nor will it after independence. It will be the same notional line you accurately described. I fail to see how self governance would affect anything you mention in your above post. The people on either side of the notional line will still be exactly the same historically , culturally and ethnically as they are today. It's total spurious, heartstring tugging emotional nonsense which is usually the sort of thing the Yoons accuse the Nats of. Oh and it's as you say a national line in the ground that folk will be free to cross not the reinstatement of Hadrian's wall !

I agree that the border has zero influence on kith and kin, which is exactly the point I'm making.

We already have self governance, so you're right.. it doesn't affect anything I mentioned in my post.

 If IndyRef2 was held (no sniggering at the back) on the premise that we were dragged out of the EU against our will, then you couldn't really have it without demanding back in.  Therefore, we'd actually need a border far stronger and more secure than the crumbling ruin that is Hadrian's Wall.

[Baxter Parp]

27 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

 the reinstatement of Hadrian's wall !

Are we getting bits of Northumberland as well now?

[Billy Jean King]

Are we getting bits of Northumberland as well now?

Aye, all the way to York , sod stopping at Northumberland.

[ICTJohnboy]

7 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

12 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Are we getting bits of Northumberland as well now?

Aye, all the way to York , sod stopping at Northumberland.

 

But that would give us all these awful red wall seats around Teesside.

[lichtgilphead]

42 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

We already have self governance

Power devolved is power retained, as you are fully aware Stormzy Santan Scott.

 

[Scott Steiner]

3 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Power devolved is power retained, as you are fully aware Stormzy Santan Scott.

 

I'm not referring to the devolved assembly, but to the parliament we elect our MPs to.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Scott Steiner said:

 

I certainly don't ignore our Irish brethren when talking of kith and kin.  I'd love nothing more than for Ireland to join the Union.

As Kincardine only started trotting out this extremist line the weekend before you (re)joined, it’s pretty apparent that your latest account is basically a Kincardine parody. It will be interesting to see how far you have to take it to satirise someone who has already descended into self-parody…