Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: Well, sorry folks, this is how regional leagues in pyramids work all over the world. Some have a higher quality than others at the same tier and the quality between the leagues can wax and wane. The difference being that these other systems have regions established on the same principle. If we apply that the Scotland, then West Lothian should have a league at tier 6, as should East Lothian, Tayside, East Ayrshire, all alongside D&G. That's how it works. However, we have two large multi-regional leagues, sitting alongside one small single regional league. Edited June 21, 2022 by Burnieman 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: We are already at the point where the LL winners are of a higher standard than the HL winners. So, using this argument, why should they be at the same level? Could have sworn the HL & LL just traded wins and had to be decided on aggregate. 1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: If Kello, for instance, tried the other way round they'd have to come back in at tier 9 with the amateurs and boys clubs. You mean the level they're already basically at? The WoS Board preference is Third Division Conferences this season that would settle into Third & Fourth Divisions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: I don't think it's "artificially" high. It's in the position it's always been in. I think the strength of the other two leagues are artificially low. And only once some of the clubs in those leagues who should be playing at a higher level reach it can we give a full assessment of the quality of the SoSFL. I also don't think it complicates the promotion issue. There's one place. The three teams play off. Simple. And I don't know why Threave have moved. You'd need to ask Threave. What is good for one club may not be necessarily good for another. So you'd need to ask them as well. However Threave are in a fairly risk free position. If they think they've made a mistake and return to the SoSFL they'll be back in at tier 6. If Kello, for instance, tried the other way round they'd have to come back in at tier 9 with the amateurs and boys clubs. No, the SoS have not always been in that position. They found themselves there almost by accident at the formation of the Pyramid. One of the problems (rightly or wrongly) mentioned by those connected to the LL is that the SoS being involved in the PO is an issue. Threave moved because they clearly saw no long-term future in the SoS. As the most prominent club with recent LL experience and one of the few SFA members, that is very telling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Burnieman said: However, we have two large multi-regional leagues, sitting alongside one small single regional league. The South would be a cracking wee league as long as the D&G clubs all saw sense and bombed down the divisions never to be promoted again. Abbey Vale Annan Athletic First team played more seasons in the EoSFL than SoSFL before joining the SFL Creetown Gretna 2008 Pre-pyramid EoSFL, wanted to be relegated back there. Still would prefer to be relegated to a different league Kello Rovers West Junior/now WoSFL Lochar Thistle Lochmaben Mid-Annandale Newton Stewart Nithsdale Wanderers Queen of the South Would have to lose full time status & fail miserably St Cuthbert Wanderers Stranraer 2nd/3rd XIs have been able to win multiple titles Threave Rovers First team just quit for the 3rd time in 25 years. Upper Annandale Wigtown & Bladnoch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said: I get the point. Except for Tier 7 clubs you're including Tier 9-10 clubs. And in order for Rutherglen & St Andrews to be the best of the West/East. Just need 32+ clubs to be promoted and the 32+ clubs relegated of a lower standard than Rutherglen & St Andrews. Well we don't know what tier the SoSFL would go onto. Right now people are saying "Creetown aren't as good as Largs". How long before that becomes "Abbey Vale aren't as good as Tynecastle" and "Mid-Annandale aren't as good as Port Glasgow"? The same arguments for relegating the league to tier 7 (which seem to be the worst clubs at the bottom of the South part of the pyramid aren't as good as the top teams in the West) would exist a tier lower as well. And we don't need 32 clubs to come up/down for those play offs to happen. We need a mixture of promotion/relegation and some clubs improving and some getting worse. The point was it wont be a generation away before the big ex junior names are in the LL and SPFL. Those clubs fans are quick to point out they are stuck in a bottleneck which inflates the quality of their league to the divisions above and alongside them. So it's unfair for them to demand an "artificially high" league is demoted when it's their own leagues that are "artificially low". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, Burnieman said: The difference being that these other systems have regions established on the same principle Not all of them. Taking away places with "fluid" geography then there are often weaker leagues next to stronger leagues at the same level. Places with area of difficult geographical issues to overcome have the same issue. Peninsulas, vast low density rural areas, islands, etc. They all keep their places in the pyramid. Perhaps because they don't need to play off against the leagues around them and, instead, are judged by the quality of their best against the league above's worst that's why it's not an issue (or maybe it is. Maybe fans of non-league teams in Skåne are raging they're at the same level as Norrbotten clubs in Sweden). If that was the case here it wouldn't be an issue either. The difference between the best in the SoSFL and the worst in the LL isn't high and it's hard to see it ever getting to a stage where it becomes a gap the SoSFL can't bridge. So the argument about a natural position only works if you look laterally. From a promotion/relegation standpoint the top of the SoSFL wouldn't embarrass themselves in the league above like a Vale of Leithen or Fort William 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: Not all of them. Taking away places with "fluid" geography then there are often weaker leagues next to stronger leagues at the same level. Places with area of difficult geographical issues to overcome have the same issue. Peninsulas, vast low density rural areas, islands, etc. They all keep their places in the pyramid. Perhaps because they don't need to play off against the leagues around them and, instead, are judged by the quality of their best against the league above's worst that's why it's not an issue (or maybe it is. Maybe fans of non-league teams in Skåne are raging they're at the same level as Norrbotten clubs in Sweden). If that was the case here it wouldn't be an issue either. The difference between the best in the SoSFL and the worst in the LL isn't high and it's hard to see it ever getting to a stage where it becomes a gap the SoSFL can't bridge. So the argument about a natural position only works if you look laterally. From a promotion/relegation standpoint the top of the SoSFL wouldn't embarrass themselves in the league above like a Vale of Leithen or Fort William I go back to the point. If the SoS league is to exist at tier 6 and we want reasonable equality across that tier, then there should be a West Lothian League at tier 6, a Midlothian League, an East Ayrshire League, A Glasgow City League etc. If that sounds a ridiculous idea, then the SoS at tier 6 is also a ridiculous idea, but is easier to resolve. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Burnieman said: Which part of "direct entry to a LL PO" didn't you understand? How else would you qualify for a promotion play-off, other than by league performance? The word 'direct' is therefore completely meaningless. If they had direct promotion into the LL as champions of the South then you'd have a point; but they don't. Edited June 21, 2022 by vikingTON -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Burnieman said: Do you think the SoS should be kept at an artificially high level, complicating the LL promotion issue (even holding it back), in order to keep a handful of amateur clubs going in D&G? Which teams have been held back from promotion thanks to the nefarious existence of the South of Scotland league? Be extremely specific. Quote why can't any of the other clubs follow their lead? For the same reason that you'd be on here having a coronary, if Oban Saints, Fort William or a new club in Aviemore filed an application to join the East of Scotland league.. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 34 minutes ago, Burnieman said: I go back to the point. If the SoS league is to exist at tier 6 and we want reasonable equality across that tier, then there should be a West Lothian League at tier 6, a Midlothian League, an East Ayrshire League, A Glasgow City League etc. If that sounds a ridiculous idea, then the SoS at tier 6 is also a ridiculous idea, but is easier to resolve. No. The two are not comparible aside from in your head. D&G isn't a separate entity because it is it's own council region but because that council region hosts challenges in travel other regions do not. Further to that point the clubs in East Ayrshire, Glasgow, etc do not want their own league just for their council area. The D&G clubs do. If, and when, other council areas demand parity at tier six then that might be a point worth making but it's just a hypothetical extreme with no grounding in reality. The exception to that could possibly be Argyll & Bute one day. And, if that were to happen, and an A&B league wanted to join in at tier 6 as it was the only way Rhu, Oban Saints, Lochgilphead Red Star, Rothesay Brandane and co could join the national pyramid then that would also be fine. Creating the opportunities for clubs to enter the pyramid is more important than some melting about the perceived quality of a league at a level when the pyramid is still in its infancy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Burnieman said: I go back to the point. If the SoS league is to exist at tier 6 and we want reasonable equality across that tier, But not everyone accepts the starting premise that we want or need 'reasonable equality' at tier 6 or lower - because Scotland has both a ridiculously concentrated population and large regional hinterlands to accommodate in a fully representative national pyramid. As I said before and we're already clearly seeing with the run of this argument, it starts with harrumphing about the South; then it'll be the North Caley; then it'll be the Highland League's turn. Soon afterwards we'll have a glorified and expanded version of the SFL from the 1970s, that caters exclusively to clubs near the M8/9/A90 corridors while the rest of the country's clubs are left to rot. Edited June 21, 2022 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, virginton said: For the same reason that you'd be on here having a coronary, if Oban Saints, Fort William or a new club in Aviemore filed an application to join the East of Scotland league.. When many heard of an Argyll & Bute club applying to the WoSFL last season many thought or hoped it would be Oban. Instead it was Campbeltown and it's not like that was any easier. 46 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: So the argument about a natural position only works if you look laterally. From a promotion/relegation standpoint the top of the SoSFL wouldn't embarrass themselves in the league above like a Vale of Leithen or Fort William Threave went 11/12, 14/14, 15/15 in the Lowland League. 38 points over 76 games. Not great. They actually resigned as there wasn't relegation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, virginton said: How else would you qualify for a promotion play-off, other than by league performance? The word 'direct' is therefore completely meaningless. If they had direct promotion into the LL as champions of the South then you'd have a point; but they don't. eh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, virginton said: Which teams have been held back from promotion thanks to the nefarious existence of the South of Scotland league? Be extremely specific. For the same reason that you'd be on here having a coronary, if Oban Saints, Fort William or a new club in Aviemore filed an application to join the East of Scotland league.. Holding back reform of pro/rel, thought it was obvious what was meant, clearly not. Why would Oban Saints, Fort William, or Aviemore apply to the EoS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said: No. The two are not comparible aside from in your head. It's completely comparable, regardless of whether you want it to be or not. Geography doesn't play a part. If you want to compare what happens in "other parts of the world", then it shows that tier 6 in Scotland is hopelessly imbalanced in the LL area with two large multi-regional leagues and one small district league on the same level. To follow your logic the two large multi-regional leagues should be broken up into their district parts to achieve a largely even playing field, or merge the district league into one of the two multi-regionals. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, virginton said: But not everyone accepts the starting premise that we want or need 'reasonable equality' at tier 6 or lower - because Scotland has both a ridiculously concentrated population and large regional hinterlands to accommodate in a fully representative national pyramid. As I said before and we're already clearly seeing with the run of this argument, it starts with harrumphing about the South; then it'll be the North Caley; then it'll be the Highland League's turn. Soon afterwards we'll have a glorified and expanded version of the SFL from the 1970s, that caters exclusively to clubs near the M8/9/A90 corridors while the rest of the country's clubs are left to rot. There's no big conspiracy here. The SoS should not be a tier 6 and I think most reasonable people involved in the game recognise that, even those in the league itself. Clubs are leaving. This has nothing to do with the HL or it's feeders, you've introduced that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said: When many heard of an Argyll & Bute club applying to the WoSFL last season many thought or hoped it would be Oban. Instead it was Campbeltown and it's not like that was any easier. Read the post again and check what league they'd be applying to. Quote Why would Oban Saints, Fort William, or Aviemore apply to the EoS? If they believed it would be in the best interests of the development of their football club (or because they failed to win their own league and want to leave in a huff - whichever is more likely for Threave). Why should mere geography hold those clubs back from exercising that divine right? Edited June 21, 2022 by vikingTON -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 58 minutes ago, Burnieman said: Holding back reform of pro/rel, thought it was obvious what was meant, clearly not. In what way has the SoS held back reform of promotion/relegation? I think we're getting somewhat closer to the real motive for all this sudden, shrill hysterics though. West and East clubs are pissed off about the blockage getting into the LL, and so are fantasising that if only the pesky South could be put in its box, then they'd be welcomed with open arms. A premise that is only one degree less stupid than the one that the LL clubs signed up for to let Colts return. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, virginton said: Read the post again and check what league they'd be applying to. Yes, and I only highlighted Oban to make a reply relating to them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Burnieman said: It's completely comparable, regardless of whether you want it to be or not. Geography doesn't play a part. If geography doesn't play a part why is the pyramid split by... geography? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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