1st 11 come September

[Old Bing]

On 03/07/2022 at 19:17, Livi1 said:

I think Tierney is one of those players that can play a number of positions well. I think he just has a very good reading of the game, a high football IQ, and is technically a very good footballer. He’s played left-centre half for Arsenal and Scotland and he adjusted pretty quickly, I think he could play as a holding midfielder/ defensive midfielder and it wouldn’t take him long to adjust. 
It would also allow McTominay to play his natural position, which he never does for club or country. Unlike Tierney, McTominay, in my opinion, should only play as a box-box midfielder, he can’t play multiple positions. But given the chance, I think he could be a very good box-box midfielder. It’s a shame for him that’s he’s never allowed to play his natural role for Man Utd or Scotland. 

The more I think about it the more I think it very well might be the answer. Tierney anchoring the midfield dropping back to cover when Robertson or Patterson bombs forward.

You right, McTominay hasn't been given a chance to play box to box for us. The idea gilmour sitting in front of Tierney with McTominay and McGinn box to box on either side.

There is fluidity to all formation of course. But our 3 man defence has left us outnumbered in midfield and a sitting duck. Also were getting caught with the long balls, just been a disaster recently. This puts is on the front foot while still being solid defensively. Also with the benefit of more players playing in their natural positions, bar Tierney of course.

Hopefully Clarke can see that everyone has worked us out.

[Guest Livi1]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Not convinced adopting a 4atb will be the solution everyone seems to think it will be. We played nearly 90 minutes across three games of the June window with 4atb - mostly when we were forced into taking risks in an attempt to get back into the game which for me tells its own story. I put the combinations used below. 

Steve Clarke obviously still thinks it's too big a risk to play 4atb with our current list of centre-backs which is no change from the original reasoning for moving to 3atb in the first instance and looking at our options it's hard to disagree.

 

It’s vital to get the midfield correct in terms of both numbers and balance. And I don’t believe Clarke did that in any of the recent games in which we switched to a back 4. I think we need a midfield 4, which would allow us to play a short, quick passing possession based game whilst offering our defence protection. I’d also have McGinn playing as a 2nd striker off Adams or Stewart and he would also drop back into midfield at times, making a 5. In my opinion, get the midfield right in terms of numbers and balance and most of our problems go away. 
Also both Souttar and McKenna are around the same age, 25/26. Would be a good time to try and build a partnership with them.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Livi1

[Guest Livi1]

18 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

You right, McTominay hasn't been given a chance to play box to box for us. The idea gilmour sitting in front of Tierney with McTominay and McGinn box to box on either side.

I’d have McGinn playing as a 2nd striker, I think that’s his best position, where he is most effective. It would also allow him the freedom to roam and find space, drop deep into midfield to pick up possession or help defend, win the ball back. 
I think McGinn can play as a 2nd striker or on the right hand side of a front 3 in a 4/3/3. I think those are his best positions. 
Id initially play McGregor to the left of Gilmour, but I’d also like to see how Turnbull performs there. It’s a similar role to the one he plays for Celtic and he’s more of a goal threat than McGregor. 
You could also move McGregor in one in place of Gilmour, if Gilmour wasn’t available to play, for any particular reason, then slot Turnbull to his left.

McGregor is more experienced though, is a very clever player, holds onto possession well and at times has worked really well with Gilmour. I think in the formation I’ve posted and with the players we should be trying to increase our possession of the ball and playing a short passing game and McGregor is well suited to this style of football, perhaps more so than Turnbull at this moment in time. And McGregor will get forward and link up in and around the box, have shots on goal. But perhaps less so than Turnbull. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Livi1

[2426255]

9 hours ago, Livi1 said:

It’s vital to get the midfield correct in terms of both numbers and balance. And I don’t believe Clarke did that in any of the recent games in which we switched to a back 4.

What midfield setup did we use when we switched to 4atb?

Edited July 9, 2022 by 2426255

[Guest Livi1]

37 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

What midfield setup did we use when we switched to 4atb?

Pretty sure we went 4/3/3

with McTominay Gilmour MacGregor as our 3 midfielders. Which is a good midfield in possession but other than McTominay, they lack physicality and I believe they aren’t strong enough defensively. They don’t offer much protection to the back 4. Which is why I’ve got Tierney sitting behind those 3, in front of the back 4. We do lack quality in that position, defensive / holding midfielder. Clarke could try Lewis Ferguson or Allan Campbell in there if Tierney isn’t available. Although both of them prefer playing as right-sided central midfielders. Ryan Jack has injury problems and he doesn’t have the work rate, mobility to play the position well, in my opinion. Tierney looks like the best option for the role if that formation was played. 

[2426255]

48 minutes ago, Livi1 said:

Pretty sure we went 4/3/3

with McTominay Gilmour MacGregor as our 3 midfielders. Which is a good midfield in possession but other than McTominay, they lack physicality and I believe they aren’t strong enough defensively. They don’t offer much protection to the back 4. Which is why I’ve got Tierney sitting behind those 3, in front of the back 4. We do lack quality in that position, defensive / holding midfielder. Clarke could try Lewis Ferguson or Allan Campbell in there if Tierney isn’t available. Although both of them prefer playing as right-sided central midfielders. Ryan Jack has injury problems and he doesn’t have the work rate, mobility to play the position well, in my opinion. Tierney looks like the best option for the role if that formation was played. 

So you want to take one of our most effective attacking outlets and put him in a more defensive role? 

[Guest Livi1]

46 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

So you want to take one of our most effective attacking outlets and put him in a more defensive role? 

Think Robertson will manage just fine as an attacking outlet down the left.

But in return for losing Tierneys attacking threat I’d be expecting more from our central midfielders, goals and assists. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Livi1

[2426255]

49 minutes ago, Livi1 said:

Think Robertson will manage just fine as an attacking outlet down the left.

But in return for losing Tierneys attacking threat I’d be expecting more from our central midfielders, goals and assists. 

Look fair enough, it's your opinion - but I'm not sold on it. Scotland will lose from time to time and people will start questioning the set up whether it's 3atb or Tierney as a defensive midfielder. It's just results based. The system is wrong because we lost - it's really that simple.

Edited July 9, 2022 by 2426255

[Guest Livi1]

9 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Look fair enough, it's your opinion - but I'm not sold on it. Scotland will lose from time to time and people will start questioning the set up like you are questioning 3atb. It's just results based. The tactics were wrong because we lost - it's really that simple.

I disagree, Ukraine and Ireland both knew that if they pressed high and outnumbered us in midfield we’d have trouble linking our midfield with our forward line. 
Armstrong.   Adams  McGinn

         Huge Space

 

       McGregor.   Gilmour

all teams need to do is fill the huge space with their midfielders and press high and it makes life very difficult for us. 
Also with the players we have, especially Gilmour we should be looking at playing a more possession based game. We can’t do that with only 2 central midfielders. 
But it wasn’t just the fact the we were beaten, it was the manner of the defeats. We were made to look like amateurs. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Livi1

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Livi1 said:

Ukraine and Ireland both knew that if they pressed high and outnumbered us in midfield we’d have trouble linking our midfield with our forward line. 
Armstrong.   Adams  McGinn

         Huge Space

 

       McGregor.   Gilmour

all teams need to do is fill the huge space with their midfielders and press high and it makes life very difficult for us. 
Also with the players we have, especially Gilmour we should be looking at playing a more possession based game. We can’t do that with only 2 central midfielders. 
But it wasn’t just the fact the we were beaten, it was the manner of the defeats. We were made to look like amateurs. 

Did you learn that on your UEFA pro licence?  

If we have 4atb and Craig Gordon in goal then is it fair to assume we will need a midfielder to drop deeper to help us build from the back? How different is that to our current approach where we keep a ball playing centre back as part of a back3 to help us play out from defence?

3atb:

4atb:

Edited July 9, 2022 by 2426255

[Guest Livi1]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Did you learn that on your UEFA pro licence?  

If we have 4atb and Craig Gordon in goal then is it fair to assume we will need a midfielder to drop deeper to help us build from the back? How different is that to our current approach where we keep a ball playing centre back as part of a back3 to help us play out from defence?

3atb:

4atb:

Not sure I understand your question. 
Having Tierney as a defensive midfielder allows him to roam, he’s not limited to the left-hand side of the pitch. Gilmour drops deep (sometimes too often for my liking), McGregor does too and occasionally McTominay will also. With more midfielders in the middle of the park it should mean more options to pass to from the defence. 

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Livi1 said:

Not sure I understand your question. 
Having Tierney as a defensive midfielder allows him to roam, he’s not limited to the left-hand side of the pitch. Gilmour drops deep (sometimes too often for my liking), McGregor does too and occasionally McTominay will also. With more midfielders in the middle of the park it should mean more options to pass to from the defence. 

The point I'm making is that during the June camp Scotland only tended to build from the back when against an opposition press if they were able to create a numerical superiority in the in the first line of build up play. If that wasn't possible we tended to go long.

3atb helps facilitate a numerical superiority in the first line, if we have 4atb then we will likely need a midfielder to drop from the midfield to help us generate a numerical advantage particularly if you consider that Craig Gordon isn't really a ball playing goalkeeper in the mould of an Ederson or Allison. 

If a midfielder drops deep then he is no longer an option in the midfield and we are back where we started. So it's swings and roundabouts for me - that's just my opinion on it.

• Short Passes: https://vimeo.com/728384926
• Long Passes: https://vimeo.com/728384525

For me it's less about a skeleton formation 4atb vs 3atb and more about decision making from the players - how effectively and efficiently can the players can react to the in game conditions and create favorable situations? The alternative is to have our 2 centre backs in a 4atb formation playing more risky passes into midfield or more likely we would see more route one football.

There are strengths and weaknesses to any system and no one system will solve everything - you strengthen one area and you weaken another. The weaknesses with a 4atb system will also be highlighted when we lose and so it goes on, again just my opinion.

Edited July 9, 2022 by 2426255

[Guest Livi1]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

3atb helps facilitate a numerical superiority in the first line, if we have 4atb then we will likely need a midfielder to drop from the midfield to help us generate a numerical advantage particularly if you consider that Craig Gordon isn't really a ball playing goalkeeper in the mould of an Ederson or Allison. 

If a midfielder drops deep then he is no longer an option in the midfield and we are back where we started. So it's swings and roundabouts for me - that's just my opinion on it.

That’s clearly not true. The formation I suggested has Tierney as a deep sitting midfielder and we also have Gilmour and McGregor who normally pick up the ball from the defence as well as McTominay in midfield who can on occasion drop to receive the ball from the defence. We have 2 more midfielders and 1 less defender and 1 less attacking midfielder/ inside forward. There are more options in midfield, more midfielders for the defence to pass too. 
But the main point you seem to be missing is the style of football we play in the 3/4/2/1  . Because we essentially only have 2 central midfielders it doesn’t really lend itself to a possession based game. We tend go back to front far too quickly because the midfield don’t have options to pass to in the centre of the park. We don’t move teams around, unsettle them through our passing so the opposition is settled within their formation when we pass forward to our forward line, making it easy for the opposition and difficult for our attackers to have any success. It’s very difficult for us to play through teams with a 3/4/2/1 and to be successful against decent teams we need to play through them. We need to control possession better, move the opposition around, push them back into their own half through our passing and possession before we pass the ball up to the forwards, have midfielders make runs from deep, linking up with the forwards and even going past them. It’s not happening with just 2 central midfielders. 

[Old Bing]

57 minutes ago, Livi1 said:

That’s clearly not true. The formation I suggested has Tierney as a deep sitting midfielder and we also have Gilmour and McGregor who normally pick up the ball from the defence as well as McTominay in midfield who can on occasion drop to receive the ball from the defence. We have 2 more midfielders and 1 less defender and 1 less attacking midfielder/ inside forward. There are more options in midfield, more midfielders for the defence to pass too. 
But the main point you seem to be missing is the style of football we play in the 3/4/2/1  . Because we essentially only have 2 central midfielders it doesn’t really lend itself to a possession based game. We tend go back to front far too quickly because the midfield don’t have options to pass to in the centre of the park. We don’t move teams around, unsettle them through our passing so the opposition is settled within their formation when we pass forward to our forward line, making it easy for the opposition and difficult for our attackers to have any success. It’s very difficult for us to play through teams with a 3/4/2/1 and to be successful against decent teams we need to play through them. We need to control possession better, move the opposition around, push them back into their own half through our passing and possession before we pass the ball up to the forwards, have midfielders make runs from deep, linking up with the forwards and even going past them. It’s not happening with just 2 central midfielders. 

Mate let me give you some good advice, the guys a clown stick him on ignore.

His bizzare view is formations and tactics are meaningless and Steve clarke is an infallible demi God.

And just repeats variations of this overand over.

Pointless engaging

[2426255]

18 hours ago, Livi1 said:

That’s clearly not true. The formation I suggested has Tierney as a deep sitting midfielder and we also have Gilmour and McGregor who normally pick up the ball from the defence as well as McTominay in midfield who can on occasion drop to receive the ball from the defence. We have 2 more midfielders and 1 less defender and 1 less attacking midfielder/ inside forward. There are more options in midfield, more midfielders for the defence to pass too. 
But the main point you seem to be missing is the style of football we play in the 3/4/2/1  . Because we essentially only have 2 central midfielders it doesn’t really lend itself to a possession based game. We tend go back to front far too quickly because the midfield don’t have options to pass to in the centre of the park. We don’t move teams around, unsettle them through our passing so the opposition is settled within their formation when we pass forward to our forward line, making it easy for the opposition and difficult for our attackers to have any success. It’s very difficult for us to play through teams with a 3/4/2/1 and to be successful against decent teams we need to play through them. We need to control possession better, move the opposition around, push them back into their own half through our passing and possession before we pass the ball up to the forwards, have midfielders make runs from deep, linking up with the forwards and even going past them. It’s not happening with just 2 central midfielders. 

You're entitled to your opinion. @Livi1 Happy to agree to disagree if you don't want to continue the conversation.

[Guest Livi1]

Ok mate, last post on the matter. Here’s something for you to think about. 
We know that the defence, centre half options are the weakest part of the squad. Now there are steps we can take to try and mitigate this. 
Do you know the best way to protect our defence? 
Keep the ball. Keep possession of the football. 
We have the players to play possession football, but we don’t because of the formation. Because of the lack of numbers and the unbalanced nature of our midfield. 
The formation I’ve suggested is the best way to play possession football with the squad that we have, in my opinion. And that’s the best you can do to protect the defence. Doesn’t matter if it’s a back 4 or 5. You can’t keep possession the defence will always be under pressure against a half-decent team. And we are at a stage where we are playing decent to good teams more regularly with the improvement in our Euro League pot standing. We need to adjust accordingly. 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Livi1 said:

Ok mate, last post on the matter. Here’s something for you to think about. 
We know that the defence, centre half options are the weakest part of the squad. Now there are steps we can take to try and mitigate this. 
Do you know the best way to protect our defence? 
Keep the ball. Keep possession of the football. 
We have the players to play possession football, but we don’t because of the formation. Because of the lack of numbers and the unbalanced nature of our midfield. 
The formation I’ve suggested is the best way to play possession football with the squad that we have, in my opinion. And that’s the best you can do to protect the defence. Doesn’t matter if it’s a back 4 or 5. You can’t keep possession the defence will always be under pressure against a half-decent team. And we are at a stage where we are playing decent to good teams more regularly with the improvement in our Euro League pot standing. We need to adjust accordingly. 

Okay mate, fair douze - my last post on the matter, Here's a wee something for you to think about also.

We have a manager in Steve Clarke who has spent his working life in football and has been involved as a professional coach in various different roles since 1998. In addition to that wealth of experience Steve Clarke will have all the data and information on the players as well as birds eye video footage from previous games and opposition games as well as a team of analysts to help him prepare an approach.

What makes you think that you have found a solution that is superior to the one from our current manager?

 

[Guest Livi1]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

Okay mate, fair douze - my last post on the matter, Here's a wee something for you to think about also.

We have a manager in Steve Clarke who has spent his working life in football and has been involved as a professional coach in various different roles since 1998. In addition to that wealth of experience Steve Clarke will have all the data and information on the players as well as birds eye video footage from previous games and opposition games as well as a team of analysts to help him prepare an approach.

What makes you think that you have found a solution that is superior to the one from our current manager?

 

I know plenty of people from mechanics to hairdressers to joiners, electricians that have spent decades in their field and are still poor at their job. What makes you think football is any different?

[2426255]

8 minutes ago, Livi1 said:

I know plenty of people from mechanics to hairdressers to joiners, electricians that have spent decades in their field and are still poor at their job. What makes you think football is any different?

Wait, are you saying you think Steve Clarke is poor at his job? 

[Guest Livi1]

4 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Wait, are you saying you think Steve Clarke is poor at his job? 

I think Steve Clarke is mediocre at best. You stated that because Clarke has spent all his working life involved in football that he must be good at it. I don’t believe that’s the case at all. As I’ve said I’ve known plenty of people who are or have been involved in industries, vocations etc for decades, all of their working life’s and they are shit at their job. Conversely I’ve known people to become very good at things in a short period of time. 
Here’s an extreme example for you, Bobby Fischer was an American Chess player, he was still in his early to mid teens when he was beating adult grandmasters. Pretty sure the same was true of  Magnus Carlsen. 
Clarke is nothing special as a manager and has made many fundamental errors, poor choices over his tenure as Scotland manager. Clarke could spend 100 years in football and would still be mediocre and you may get someone who spends  couple of years in management and will be better than Clarke can ever hope to achieve.