A list of reasons why you would NEVER vote SNP (now or in an iScotland)

[Dan Steele]

39 minutes ago, Jedi said:

putting pressure on the SNP themselves to see that better, more community orientated policies can and should be delivered post-Independence.

Yep, what is needed is more community oriented policies feeding into the SNP kick-started indy campaign. Oh...

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

'Who else' can possibly deliver Independence apart from the SNP?....how about the actual people of Scotland themselves? 

The reason why the 2014 campaign came so far, wasn't the SNP, it was the variety of grassroots activists, who did the heavy lifting in working class communities across the country....Women for Independence, RIC, Trade Unions for Independence, Labour!! for Independence etc...some 300 community organisations were formed on the Yes side. These were the people who often packed out town halls, manned the stalls, went on the marches.......not 'just' the SNP leadership.

The sad part is, that, rather than try to re-engage these people, and once again inspire working class voters, the SNP leadership wants the campaign to be all about them, and their vision of it.

See all those community groups like Yes hubs and the like? The ones who have been and still are engaged with the debate are all working for independence. They see themselves as part of a wide-ranging network reaching out to all people living in Scotland (and beyond, with connections made across Europe). Why would the SNP want the campaign to be all about them? The vision will be decided by the people of Scotland.

[Guest Jedi]

7 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

 Why would the SNP want the campaign to be all about them? The vision will be decided by the people of Scotland.

I sincerely hope so, as that is as it should be.You are right...it will be the Yes Hubs, the grassroots who will win the campaign...not the SNP.

[Guest Jedi]

26 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Those two stand out from your post.

On the green one, you have a brass neck coming out with this after Labour joined forces with the Tories to defeat independence in 2014 and to continue to deny an IndyRef2 vote. Be careful who you aim accusations at. Some might think you are a hypocrite.

And the bit in red? What do you expect Sturgeon to do about drugs usage? Trawl the Glasgow streets in person and grab needles out of junkies hands? We have a drugs problem in Scotland because we have a large number of people willing to inject, snort and smoke quite literally any old shite they can get their hands on from organised criminals. People make personal choices in life. There's nothing Sturgeon can realistically do about that I'm afraid.

Highlighted the SNP's cosying up to the Tories and being happy to work with them between 2007-11, as Labour are often accused of being the 'only' ones to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in 2014, and in different Councils. However, working with the Tories 'to get things done', as it was portrayed in the first SNP minority administration, is still, 'working with' the Tories.....if one is wrong, then so surely is the other.

Don't disagree about drug usage being difficult for any government to tackle. What they could be doing (not saying this is easy), is looking to other countries which maybe found more effective measures in tackling the influx of drugs in the first place, how they reduced organised crime etc....and trying to implement some of these methods at source. At the same time, ensuring that proper funding is in place to address addictions. Again, not an easy one for any govt, and no the Scot govt can't be out on the streets stopping folk snorting, injecting and smoking....but we would hope to at least see some reduction.

On the sop to the middle class, it was more the Council Tax freeze and continued failure to replace it with a local income tax (as they said they would do within 100 days in 2007), that I meant, rather than prescriptions, baby boxes, chid care places etc.....it has led to a shortfall in funding for Council services which I still reckon hits the poorest harder. (although of course the Freeze has recently and finally, been reversed).

[JMDPco]

@Jedihas gone full Foulkes and it's sad to see. Listing problems and attributing wholesale blame at the door of a devolved government without acknowledging the historical, cultural and other factors around it is at best intellectually dishonest and at worst, complete misinformation.

I'd give the SNP government a tentative 6/10 for their tenure so far with a lot of huge failures thrown in there. 

If there was no devolved parliament and Scotland was governed via the outcomes of GE's over the last fifteen years, what do you think would have been the substantial improvements on the "failures" you listed?

[Brother Blades]

54 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Highlighted the SNP's cosying up to the Tories and being happy to work with them between 2007-11, as Labour are often accused of being the 'only' ones to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in 2014, and in different Councils. However, working with the Tories 'to get things done', as it was portrayed in the first SNP minority administration, is still, 'working with' the Tories.....if one is wrong, then so surely is the other.

Don't disagree about drug usage being difficult for any government to tackle. What they could be doing (not saying this is easy), is looking to other countries which maybe found more effective measures in tackling the influx of drugs in the first place, how they reduced organised crime etc....and trying to implement some of these methods at source. At the same time, ensuring that proper funding is in place to address addictions. Again, not an easy one for any govt, and no the Scot govt can't be out on the streets stopping folk snorting, injecting and smoking....but we would hope to at least see some reduction.

On the sop to the middle class, it was more the Council Tax freeze and continued failure to replace it with a local income tax (as they said they would do within 100 days in 2007), that I meant, rather than prescriptions, baby boxes, chid care places etc.....it has led to a shortfall in funding for Council services which I still reckon hits the poorest harder. (although of course the Freeze has recently and finally, been reversed).

Up till now, I’ve been very decent & accommodating of your views, but I draw the line at drug deaths, I’ve been involved in numerous meetings where the imperfect SNP have proposed similar solutions to Portugal & we aren’t allowed to do it, btw, check the previous drug deaths in Europe & see who won that argument. You’ve gone full SNP bad & I’ll not be engaging civilly with you any longer. 

[Guest Jedi]

28 minutes ago, JMDPco said:

@Jedihas gone full Foulkes and it's sad to see. Listing problems and attributing wholesale blame at the door of a devolved government without acknowledging the historical, cultural and other factors around it is at best intellectually dishonest and at worst, complete misinformation.

I'd give the SNP government a tentative 6/10 for their tenure so far with a lot of huge failures thrown in there. 

If there was no devolved parliament and Scotland was governed via the outcomes of GE's over the last fifteen years, what do you think would have been the substantial improvements on the "failures" you listed?

Glad to see that you are at least a 6, rather than 9 or 10/10. What are the 'historical and cultural' factors connected to policies on education, health, the environment, transport, child care,  In health, yes I would accept that Scotland has a poor record both historically and culturally), but the others?

It's a big 'what if' there had been no devolved parliament over the last 15 years. Clearly with the Tories taking their wrecking ball of austerity to public services and living standards in that time, yes, it would be hard to see any 'improvements'

However, the fact remains that Holyrood is very much there, and is able to decide policy in a wide range of areas.

[Guest Jedi]

3 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Up till now, I’ve been very decent & accommodating of your views, but I draw the line at drug deaths, I’ve been involved in numerous meetings where the imperfect SNP have proposed similar solutions to Portugal & we aren’t allowed to do it, btw, check the previous drug deaths in Europe & see who won that argument. You’ve gone full SNP bad & I’ll not be engaging civilly with you any longer. 

Apart from the f*cking F*ck F*cks in reference to Labour you mean?

[Guest Jedi]

You might also notice that on drugs deaths above I said that I agree that no government can exactly be on the streets to prevent people taking them, nor can they fully prevent drugs entering the country in the first place. Therefore, from that statement you could conclude that I was saying, while the numbers are not good, that I have sympathy with any government, including the SNP in trying to tackle the problem.

[Guest Jedi]

I also appreciate that for some folk, the SNP is like a religion, and any criticism of them is therefore regarded as a 'personal' attack. I get it, having been there for years myself (and during the time when the party was regarded as fringe movement only for die hards)

[JMDPco]

8 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Glad to see that you are at least a 6, rather than 9 or 10/10. What are the 'historical and cultural' factors connected to policies on education, health, the environment, transport, child care,  In health, yes I would accept that Scotland has a poor record both historically and culturally), but the others?

It's a big 'what if' there had been no devolved parliament over the last 15 years. Clearly with the Tories taking their wrecking ball of austerity to public services and living standards in that time, yes, it would be hard to see any 'improvements'

However, the fact remains that Holyrood is very much there, and is able to decide policy in a wide range of areas.

So, do you think that had there been no Scottish Parliament, things would be better or worse than they are now, had Scotland been governed solely by the outcomes of GE's?

I will respond to your first paragraph later, I'm not sure you've actually grasped what I'm saying and have a very simple black/white view of things. To completely disassociate SG policy/current outcomes from the factors I listed is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest - I suspect you know that though. You've gone full Hothersall/Foulkes. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by JMDPco

[Aufc]

I’m seeing first hand the shambles that is education. My son is P2. In a class of 31. There are 7 kids being tested for ADHD so essentially need additional help. They have one teacher.

[williemillersmoustache]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

Don't disagree about drug usage being difficult for any government to tackle. What they could be doing (not saying this is easy), is looking to other countries which maybe found more effective measures in tackling the influx of drugs in the first place, how they reduced organised crime etc....and trying to implement some of these methods at source. 

There's lots of other evidence of course but this paragraph stand as definitive proof that you are at it. 

Should Scotland invade Columbia? Because I seem to recall the UK invading Afghanistan and a deliberate policy choice not to impoverish the poppy farmers by burning their crops lest they be driven into supportiung the Taliban.

As for looking to other coutnries for more effective measures. I take it you don't think decriminalisation is one of those measures?

Get yourself and your endless concern trolling in the bin. Arsehole. 

[Guest Jedi]

There is no point discussing the SNP any further until the Supreme Court makes a ruling and we see where things go from there.

Until then hope @williemillersmoustachewill be comfortable with your own ego until then.

[Bad Wolf]

21 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Yeah, but the Liberals will be tainted by jumping into bed with the Tories for a long long time to come, for me anyway. They don’t seem to have any direction but some policies I like. Ed Davey is more uninspiring than Keith if that’s possible! 
Ffs, Ed Milliband is more charismatic than Starmer! 

Even though I'd already accepted that the UK was dead by that point, I voted LibDem in the 2010 Westminster election; as I thought there was a tiny chance that if they actually won a majority the Tweedledum/dee duopoly that had killed the country could be broken. Of course that didn't happen as the terminally braindead were scared into voting ConLab in order to keep LabCon out. I still think that voting for them was the right choice at that point, and also, if less fervently, think that they were right to enter into the coalition as they felt they could ameliorate the evils that an unfettered Tory government will perpetrate. Their mistake was underestimating the Tories' sleekitness, one they won't make again presumably. 

 

In short, I may just consider voting for them again in future, but they have to stop spewing out the "SNP bad!" line, which doesn't look too likely at the moment, it has to be said. Davey is indeed a nonentity, though calling him more uninspiring than Starmy is a tad harsh!

[Bad Wolf]

14 hours ago, Jedi said:

Don't disagree about drug usage being difficult for any government to tackle. What they could be doing (not saying this is easy), is looking to other countries which maybe found more effective measures in tackling the influx of drugs in the first place, how they reduced organised crime etc....and trying to implement some of these methods at source. At the same time, ensuring that proper funding is in place to address addictions. Again, not an easy one for any govt, and no the Scot govt can't be out on the streets stopping folk snorting, injecting and smoking....but we would hope to at least see some reduction.

Westminster blocked the Scottish government's attempts to introduce harm reduction policies in Scotland.

[Bad Wolf]

13 hours ago, Jedi said:

I also appreciate that for some folk, the SNP is like a religion, and any criticism of them is therefore regarded as a 'personal' attack. I get it, having been there for years myself (and during the time when the party was regarded as fringe movement only for die hards)

I don't think you do get it. You were a true believer of one kind, now you're a true believer of another kind. I personally have voted for six different political parties since 1983, none of whom I felt so strongly in tune with that I wished to join them. I am currently an SNP and Green voter, generally in that order (though not in our most recent election); and not an SNP cultist/kool aid drinker of the kind that largely exists in your head.

[Kenneth840]

 

On 06/11/2022 at 00:32, Jedi said:

There is a bit of an impasse and vicious cycle now unfortunately..

Support for Independence is between 44-47% (consistently in recent times)...Not enough to win a Ref, but transferable pretty.much en masee to the SNP at any election, guaranteeing them a majority at Holyrood and most MPs in a GE..

I realise that voting Labour in Scotland now is pretty much akin to voting SSP...neither vote will lead to any electoral representation.

However the SNP appear rather stuck.

Either the Supreme Court comes through and a Ref is held next year all well and good...Let's say the result is a narrow No...the SNP carry on into the next Scottish election in 2026 still guaranteed around 44-47% and demanding another Ref, or...

Supreme Court says No....SNP enter the GE on a single platform....return 44-47% of the vote and a majority of seats and demand to negotiate Independece (based on less than half of the electorate)...Westminster (maybe) says No..onto the next Scottish election, repeat the cycle.

So, only positive outcome seems predicated on Supreme Court says Yes, and that 44-47 gets to over 50% with would you believe it.....Labour, Green and Lib Dem voters coming on board

Its a pretend referendum anyway, NS has said it herself.  Doesn't matter whether the UKSC goes for or against, the result of the pretenderendum will not be legally binding.  NS and Scotgov own words.  

I am struggling to see how some people can find that difficult. 

On 06/11/2022 at 08:41, The Skelpit Lug said:

I'd never vote SNP if they started spouting right-wing pish, pandered to racists, were bereft of ideas that would help people in need and treating Scotland as not worthy of a second thought, y'know, like LabTories.

They maybe won't spout right wing pish, but they are quick to do deals with capitalists, y'know like the Tories. 

[Kenneth840]

On 06/11/2022 at 10:47, williemillersmoustache said:

Always indicative when folk cannot tell the difference between rhetoric for effect and actual conviction. 

If you're not bellowing f**k and c**t, fucking c**t and indeed cunting f**k at the state of the UK and in particular the slow motion grinding crisis upon crisis of UK immigration policy, the shortages in the labour market and the treatment of our fellow man, then you either haven't understood the severity of the problem or you are choosing not to try to do so. In my humble but objectively fucking spot on opinion.

 

Why are you blaming the uk?  The power to change things rests with us, the Sovereign Scottish people. 

It is not westminster you should be blaming for our lack of progress on Independence, it is Holyrood and their delay in forcing it. 

So c**t and f**k as much as you like, it is the elected MPs and MSPs of Scotland that are delaying it.

[Kenneth840]

On 06/11/2022 at 13:51, The Skelpit Lug said:

I'm guessing that's a bit tongue in cheek but do you think the strong and stable, better together government in Westminster is doing better or worse than the limited powers government in Holyrood? 

The SG handed back powers over Welfare/Socials security a while ago because they couldn't manage it.  

Check it out for yourself, they handed powers back to westminster.  

[Kenneth840]

On 06/11/2022 at 16:55, Jedi said:

So the main point seems to be..the Scottish government as currently constituted is essentially powerless..it has no control over decisions on health, education, transport, taxation, the environment, trade unions, working conditions etc. Therefore 'any' party which is in government at Holyrood is de facto a sort of parish council, just shuffling the occasional agenda around but nothing more, all the while just waiting for I-Day to arrive when they will then and only then be in a position to make decisions about health, education, etc etc in Scotland. 

They really should pay MSPs an awful lot less as all.they have to do is shuffle some paper around and make the occasional speech.

Apparently it is never the SG fault, always WM. Never ever blame the SG because it will give you a smacked erse. 

We are the eejits, we think things are going wrong in Scotland.  But its all ok if we only follow the leader.