A list of reasons why you would NEVER vote SNP (now or in an iScotland)

[KingRocketman II]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

You seem awfy fixated on one area (immigration). I don't disagree that Starmer needs to watch his language..both because he is wrong and also that Labour certainly don't need to 'pander to racists' to win Red Wall seats now...again, on paper, their immigration proposals are very similar to the SNP...and yes, again, their language around could and should be more positive.

That is one area..(which Starmer is currently getting wrong).....I am concerned about that I assure you while also being concerned by the SNPs appalling record in govt and the prospect of many.more years of them to come

very similar, if you exclude Free Movement of Labour (which SNP support), recruitment of EU and overseas nationals to fill the gaps left in the NHS post Brexit and Tory hardened immigration stance (which Starmer is opposed to and wants "British" people to fill those gaps), and the introduction of yet another Points Based System (which Labour wants and will presumably be no different from the current Tory PBS restrictive model) 

But ignore all that. Keep chanting "appalling record in Govt" for the SNP and maybe maybe some will start to believe it to be true....

 

[Guest Jedi]

7 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

very similar, if you exclude Free Movement of Labour (which SNP support), recruitment of EU and overseas nationals to fill the gaps left in the NHS post Brexit and Tory hardened immigration stance (which Starmer is opposed to and wants "British" people to fill those gaps), and the introduction of yet another Points Based System (which Labour wants and will presumably be no different from the current Tory PBS restrictive model) 

But ignore all that. Keep chanting "appalling record in Govt" for the SNP and maybe maybe some will start to believe it to be true....

 

Yes, you are right..they actually have a superb record in govt, pretty much unprecedented and unmatched anywhere in fact..Soon people will be flocking to Scotland to learn from them. My bad.

[Dan Steele]

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Yes, you are right..they actually have a superb record in govt, pretty much unprecedented and unmatched anywhere in fact..Soon people will be flocking to Scotland to learn from them. My bad.

I'm guessing that's a bit tongue in cheek but do you think the strong and stable, better together government in Westminster is doing better or worse than the limited powers government in Holyrood? 

[KingRocketman II]

10 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Yes, you are right..they actually have a superb record in govt, pretty much unprecedented and unmatched anywhere in fact..Soon people will be flocking to Scotland to learn from them. My bad.

well, probably best you have glossed over your immigration remarks. on SNP's record in Government, you seem to consider it can only be appalling or superb. Quite the nuanced and contextualised debater. Will leave you to crack on with whatever one-man quest you are on. 

[Nae Union]

19 hours ago, Jedi said:

Well, being that there is a Labour thread of the same name, how about...

Working in tandem with the Tories between 2007-2011 to get their policies through, generally having a love in with Annabel Goldie.

Sending elderly people with COVID back into care homes to further spread the virus and lead to a higher death rate

Throwing teachers under the bus during COVID by refusing to admit that schools were not safe places at the height of the pandemic, and doing so in order to court popularity

Consistently cosying up to the business community in order to court popularity

Dismantling bus services since 2007 with many local routes being shelves and passenger numbers down 25% since 2007

Failure to replace the Council Tax with a local income tax as promised to do so in '100 days in 2007.

Slashing funding for key environmental bodies, such as the Royal Botanic Gardens, SEPA, SNH, 

Missing their own social homes target by 22% 

Promise to set up a Publicly Owned Energy Company in 2017...where is it?

The sidelining of the membership in favour of a small coterie of Nicola's pals basically calling all the shots

The sidelining of 'other' groups in the Yes Campaign, particularly RIC

Refusal to increase the top rate of income tax in order to appease the middle class/business community

Trying to appear 'left', while being economically 'right'

Highest number of drugs related deaths in Europe, in Scotland

The grossly over budget over time Ferry Project

Constant claims that Scotland has no authority over funding despite having control of income tax bands and rates.

1 in 4 children in Scotland living in poverty

The centralisation of Police Scotland which has led to a much reduced service across the country

Food Bank use in Scotland increasing by 75% over the past 4 years

Some 350,000 workers in Scotland still don't earn the Living Wage

Buying Tata Steel for £1, then selling it on to Liberty Steel, in breach of state aid regulations. Providing the head of Liberty Steel a £586 million power purchase guarantee, a move which could end up costing the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds due to the financial failure of Liberty Steel

handing substantial contacts off the north coast to noted polluters BP and Shell, and giving them public money to do so

The farce which was the Named Persons Bill

Cutting college places

Recently cosying up to the monarchy

The water contamination scandal at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital

A proposal to hand interest rates to the Bank of England post-Independence

Proposal to slash public services in Scotland to the bone after Independence (for up to 10 years)

Funding of NHS Scotland failing to keep pace with similar funding in England

NS suggesting that the GRA was a 'top priority' for government (fair enough have one, but a 'top priority'?)

Derek McKay

Kate Forbes

Derek McKay...again

Just for starters...

 

 

Can I put you down as a 'maybe'?

[Guest Jedi]

11 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

well, probably best you have glossed over your immigration remarks. on SNP's record in Government, you seem to consider it can only be appalling or superb. Quite the nuanced and contextualised debater. Will leave you to crack on with whatever one-man quest you are on. 

The superb record comments are tongue in cheek/sarcasm..sorry you.missed that, so.no I have changed my mind..it is still appealing.. Not on any quest and have responded to the one trick pony of Labour's immigration policies now more often than Rachel Reeves

[Guest Jedi]

3 minutes ago, Nae Union said:

Can I put you down as a 'maybe'?

On voting SNP?...clearly 

[KingRocketman II]

22 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The superb record comments are tongue in cheek/sarcasm..sorry you.missed that, so.no I have changed my mind..it is still appealing.. Not on any quest and have responded to the one trick pony of Labour's immigration policies now more often than Rachel Reeves

I just assumed it was all sarcasm based on your posting frequency and style. The way things are going you re going to be resorting shortly to Spongeheid memes - but good to see your position is softening along the way. 

[Brother Blades]

3 hours ago, Jedi said:

You seem awfy fixated on one area (immigration). I don't disagree that Starmer needs to watch his language..both because he is wrong and also that Labour certainly don't need to 'pander to racists' to win Red Wall seats now...again, on paper, their immigration proposals are very similar to the SNP...and yes, again, their language around could and should be more positive.

That is one area..(which Starmer is currently getting wrong).....I am concerned about that I assure you while also being concerned by the SNPs appalling record in govt and the prospect of many.more years of them to come

His stance & language on immigration is appalling, but for me, it’s far far more serious than that, it’s pandering to the worst types in our society to chase votes, there’s no conviction there. I’d not be surprised to see him endorse any far right policy if he thought it would guarantee the red wall returned to base.

As you quite rightly say, he probably doesn’t need to pander to them at all now, so many people are disillusioned with the Tories that he doesn’t need those votes which is only about a couple of hundred thousand throughout the entire nation. 
Now, it’s easy to criticise the SNP for some areas of governance especially coming from the position of a party that hasn’t held office for a dozen years, I can find it easy to criticise them on some issues too, but appalling? If you compare their record on most issues it will compare reasonably favourably with our English & Welsh counterparts (forget NI as they aren’t really being governed), bearing in mind that SG have proposed things that are blocked by Westminster ( particularly on drug deaths, which is a major failure by the SNP).  You’ve gone full SNP BAD, never go full SNP BAD!

What did you think of Starmers bullshit regarding a referendum on BBC Scotland this morning? Is this just another small thing he could handle better or was it out & out hypocrisy & denial of democracy? 

[KingRocketman II]

3 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

His stance & language on immigration is appalling, but for me, it’s far far more serious than that, it’s pandering to the worst types in our society to chase votes, there’s no conviction there. I’d not be surprised to see him endorse any far right policy if he thought it would guarantee the red wall returned to base.

Labour's stance on immigration and many things is exactly as you say - informed directly by the Brexit voters they are desperate to court back.

Apart from SNP/Greens the only main party with a liberal approach to immigration is, eh the Liberals - but another Westminster party tied up in knots by their Brexit stance with their declared intent on re-joining the Single Market balanced against "accepting the reality of the [Brexit] situation". 

[Brother Blades]

21 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

Labour's stance on immigration and many things is exactly as you say - informed directly by the Brexit voters they are desperate to court back.

Apart from SNP/Greens the only main party with a liberal approach to immigration is, eh the Liberals - but another Westminster party tied up in knots by their Brexit stance with their declared intent on re-joining the Single Market balanced against "accepting the reality of the [Brexit] situation". 

Yeah, but the Liberals will be tainted by jumping into bed with the Tories for a long long time to come, for me anyway. They don’t seem to have any direction but some policies I like. Ed Davey is more uninspiring than Keith if that’s possible! 
Ffs, Ed Milliband is more charismatic than Starmer! 

[Guest Jedi]

'never go Full SNP Bad'.

However when any party has been in power for 15 years, you would expect a record which shows improvement in the lives of most (or at least a good number of people).

Is it Westminster's fault that Scotland has the lowest Healthy Life Expectancy in Europe (61.8 years compared to a European average of 68.3)? Or that there is a 25 year gap in HLE between the wealthiest and most deprived areas? Maybe the substantial reduction in GP'S in Scotland doesn't help. Or having the highest homeless deaths in the UK?

Is it Westminster's fault that Scotland continues to slide down the PISA rankings, or that 26% of pupils from the most deprived areas go onto University, compared to 60% of the wealthiest? Or that Nicola chose to scrap the Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy in 2017, so as to make it harder to track progress in these areas?

Or maybe it's Westminster's fault that 20% of Scottish adults live in relative poverty now (up from 16% in 2011) Or 1 in 4 children are in relative poverty, (and 20% in severe poverty), or 14% of pensioners living in poverty (also an increase and the highest in the UK) What have the SNP's anti-poverty measures been?

Or on Child Care, only 13% of centres (promised in 2014) have been delivered. 30% of local authorities have childcare places available for working parents, compared to 56% in England.

I know the answer is 'yes, it all Westminster's fault, you can't expect the SNP to reduce poverty, improve education, deliver on child care, and create a healthier society as well as tackling homelessness and drugs deaths, because.....they don't have the full levers, they are just minding the shop until they do'

And yes, as I have said before, Starmer should not deny Scotland a Referendum/negotiation, if that is the outcome of the next GE

 

 

 

[Brother Blades]

43 minutes ago, Jedi said:

'never go Full SNP Bad'.

However when any party has been in power for 15 years, you would expect a record which shows improvement in the lives of most (or at least a good number of people).

Is it Westminster's fault that Scotland has the lowest Healthy Life Expectancy in Europe (61.8 years compared to a European average of 68.3)? Or that there is a 25 year gap in HLE between the wealthiest and most deprived areas? Maybe the substantial reduction in GP'S in Scotland doesn't help. Or having the highest homeless deaths in the UK?

Is it Westminster's fault that Scotland continues to slide down the PISA rankings, or that 26% of pupils from the most deprived areas go onto University, compared to 60% of the wealthiest? Or that Nicola chose to scrap the Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy in 2017, so as to make it harder to track progress in these areas?

Or maybe it's Westminster's fault that 20% of Scottish adults live in relative poverty now (up from 16% in 2011) Or 1 in 4 children are in relative poverty, (and 20% in severe poverty), or 14% of pensioners living in poverty (also an increase and the highest in the UK) What have the SNP's anti-poverty measures been?

Or on Child Care, only 13% of centres (promised in 2014) have been delivered. 30% of local authorities have childcare places available for working parents, compared to 56% in England.

I know the answer is 'yes, it all Westminster's fault, you can't expect the SNP to reduce poverty, improve education, deliver on child care, and create a healthier society as well as tackling homelessness and drugs deaths, because.....they don't have the full levers, they are just minding the shop until they do'

And yes, as I have said before, Starmer should not deny Scotland a Referendum/negotiation, if that is the outcome of the next GE

 

 

 

I’d dispute some of this but the main point is… all this has occurred whilst Scotland are shackled to rUK, so it’s not the win you think it is. 
Compare every statistic you’ve quoted to a similar sized independent nation like Norway, who have produced less oil & gas than Scotland. We need away from the fleecing fuckers in Westminster, just to remind you of how on the pulse Scottish Labour are…

https://youtu.be/x5OwFaYcfXU

 

 

 

[KingRocketman II]

9 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I’d dispute some of this but the main point is… all this has occurred whilst Scotland are shackled to rUK, so it’s not the win you think it is. 
Compare every statistic you’ve quoted to a similar sized independent nation like Norway, who have produced less oil & gas than Scotland. We need away from the fleecing fuckers in Westminster, just to remind you of how on the pulse Scottish Labour are…

https://youtu.be/x5OwFaYcfXU

 

 

 

a better comparison would be with the other devolved countries shackled to the car-crash that is Labour and the Tories' beloved Westminster.

And then we of course look at the record of, yes, "Welsh" Labour, and we see rising child poverty, NHS records in failure being set, etc etc. It truly shows the post is not a win in any shape or form....

[Guest Jedi]

So the main point seems to be..the Scottish government as currently constituted is essentially powerless..it has no control over decisions on health, education, transport, taxation, the environment, trade unions, working conditions etc. Therefore 'any' party which is in government at Holyrood is de facto a sort of parish council, just shuffling the occasional agenda around but nothing more, all the while just waiting for I-Day to arrive when they will then and only then be in a position to make decisions about health, education, etc etc in Scotland. 

They really should pay MSPs an awful lot less as all.they have to do is shuffle some paper around and make the occasional speech.

[Guest Jedi]

3 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

a better comparison would be with the other devolved countries shackled to the car-crash that is Labour and the Tories' beloved Westminster.

And then we of course look at the record of, yes, "Welsh" Labour, and we see rising child poverty, NHS records in failure being set, etc etc. It truly shows the post is not a win in any shape or form....

To be honest I thought the discussion was about politics 8n Scotland, not Wales ot England .despite that I think Wales and England are both in the UK, and appear to have better current records on health stats, education, homelessness, life expectancy and attainment gaps...

Going for a Welsh comparison...maybe not the win you think it is 

[KingRocketman II]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

To be honest I thought the discussion was about politics 8n Scotland, not Wales ot England .despite that I think Wales and England are both in the UK, and appear to have better current records on health stats, education, homelessness, life expectancy and attainment gaps...

Going for a Welsh comparison...maybe not the win you think it is 

no, nuance plus comparable context and analysis is not anything we want to bring into this "appalling" and "superb" debate. Let's remove that from the discussion as we did with Labour's immigration stance earlier 

[Alert Mongoose]

It's him, isn't it?

[Richey Edwards]

29 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

It's him, isn't it?

Ken Stott?

[Guest Jedi]

Ken Stott...could be worse 

Maybe selling off 2,663 public land and property assets over the last few years to private companies in order to plug the gap in Council funding is also the fault of Westminster....or is it another example along with a failure to tackle poverty and inequality in Scotland of the SNP's right wing economic model? Let alone selling off the Scottish seabed to multinationals. It gives another flavour of how the SNP would administer an Independent Scotland for years to come.

So, the alternative to a more positive Independent nation, is perhaps putting this government's record properly under scrutiny, and giving the voting public a fair chance to decide if, following Independence, that they are the best option in the first Scottish GE to continue making the choices or not.

Who else is going to deliver Independence for Scotland in the meantime? Yes, not the moon howlers of Alba, but perhaps the people of Scotland themselves, freed from 'relying' on the SNP, having to hold their nose to vote for them at all, but rather working 'independently' of the SNP in the course of a Referendum campaign, and putting pressure on the SNP themselves to see that better, more community orientated policies can and should be delivered post-Independence. Again, the reason why the campaign came so far in 2014, wasn't the SNP. it was the variety of other Yes groups who did the heavy lifting, engaging with working class communities the length and breadth of the country, and energising people to vote Yes in the numbers they did. Selling a top-down, corporate driven model of what Scotland could be, just won't inspire enough folk to get it over the line of 50%