Butters Scotch Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) 9 hours ago, 2426255 said: It's a trade-off. Not something we worry about with Tierney as we get both, but we saw it with Scott McTominay: You gain on one hand, but you lose on the other. McLean or McGregor are similar. #ISRSCO.mp4 8 MB · 0 downloads It's a quality issue. Scotland don't have the quality in depth and therefore have to make a choice or trade-off. https://forum.pieandbovril.com/topic/283065-the-mctominay-conundrum/ Plenty of other teams did well enough without quality in depth and manage to get around these trade offs. We also have players playing at a decent level every week barring Ralston/McGregor but at least they have experience of getting pumped in the champions league. Clarke was badly at fault at this tournament and questions need to be asked. Where were the changes? Ralston wasn't playing well in the first two games yet played, there was no service into Adams first two games but then we continue with a same formation in the third game and then again he was isolated. McGregor has done well for Scotland in the past but I personally think he is bang average. He was badly shown up in that Germany game in particular yet is Clarkes first choice no matter what, why didn't we try Christie out there for example pre tournament after a great season at Bournemouth in a similar position. McGinn has been off form for a while now, why didn't we try out someone else there? No minutes for Conway despite him looking like a striker we could do with that likes to run in behind and stretch the opposing defence, someone that doesn't drop deep or stand in the one position. What was the point in Forrest being on the plane? Why wasn't Fraser selected? Morgan barely given a chance. Edited July 12 by Butters Scotch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, Butters Scotch said: Plenty of other teams did well enough without quality in depth and manage to get around these trade offs. Scott McKenna spoke before the Germany game. He's a defender, not a ball player. So that's the trade-off Steve Clarke chose. Quote Yeah I think the older you get, especially being a centre-back, the more experience you gain. You start to become used to different situations, so I think I’m just a more experienced defender. Try to still be aggressive – win my tackles, win my headers and give the ball to boys that are better on it than me. Scott McKenna https://youtu.be/TxXIm2dpHH8?si=HTmoOu0-rw8pvJFb&t=178 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 33 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Scott McKenna spoke before the Germany game. He's a defender, not a ball player. So that's the trade-off Steve Clarke chose. https://youtu.be/TxXIm2dpHH8?si=HTmoOu0-rw8pvJFb&t=178 I am aware that is the trade off and the argument is that Clarke got that decision wrong. Maybe not so much the start of the Hungary game as everyone thought they would come out to attack us to claw back their goal difference but he wasn't bold enough to change things once it was clear Hungary were going to park the bus all game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 On 12/07/2024 at 11:15, Butters Scotch said: I am aware that is the trade off and the argument is that Clarke got that decision wrong. What reasons could there be for trading a ball playing centre-back for a defender? A good reason might be if Hungary have any high-quality, standout attacking footballers. Someone that will play in areas that a ball-player such as McGregor or McLean may be vulnerable. Someone like Dominik Szoboszlai. #SCOHUN - S.McKenna..mp4 -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Has the fraud been fired yet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 9 hours ago, 2426255 said: What reasons could there be for trading a ball playing centre-back for a defender? A good reason might be if Hungary have any high-quality, standout attacking footballers. Someone that will play in areas that a ball-player such as McGregor or McLean may be vulnerable. Someone like Dominik Szoboszlai. #SCOHUN - S.McKenna..mp4 7.32 MB · 0 downloads You mean a ball playing midfielder? There's little point in discussing the reasons as you'll argue against every point made regardless since you've back yourself into a corner with defending Clarke's tactics no matter what 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 8 hours ago, Butters Scotch said: There's little point in discussing the reasons as you'll argue against every point made regardless since you've back yourself into a corner with defending Clarke's tactics no matter what The points made are easy-to-understand, fair and reasonable in addressing why Steve Clarke approached the Hungary game the way he did. They've been supported by game-footage, quality sources and player interview. Scotland lack the quality in depth to replace Kieran Tierney, so have to make a trade-off. Scotland attack with a rest defence of a minimum of three players. Playing Scott McKenna has a reduced impact on our attacking output. Hungary have a high quality attacking player in the area where a midfielder (McLean, McGregor) playing as a ball playing centre back is vulnerable. Points #1 and #2 you've accepted in principle. Point #3 is straightforward. Spoiler On 12/07/2024 at 11:15, Butters Scotch said: I am aware that is the trade off and the argument is that Clarke got that decision wrong. Maybe not so much the start of the Hungary game as everyone thought they would come out to attack us to claw back their goal difference but he wasn't bold enough to change things once it was clear Hungary were going to park the bus all game. On 11/07/2024 at 10:05, Butters Scotch said: Keeping three players back when in attack isn't exactly some kind of new phenomenon, I think most people are aware we keep bodies back to defend the counter attack. Growing up playing football, if one fullback went up field then you'd keep the other on the opposite side back generally for example, it's very common so let's not pretend this is something new and different. There is next to no argument against keeping a 'rest defence', it's the type of player you are adding to the game to replace Tierney which doesn't add any kind of value to our attacking build up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoP Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Utter disgrace that 3 weeks on there’s not been a peep from Clarke or the SFA about the teams performance, or the way forward I hope they’re all enjoying their relaxing summer holidays. Can see it playing out that nothing gets said at all until the squad announcement for the Poland Portugal double header and then it’s a few squirmy words about learning and looking forward and possibly a couple of token new faces in the squad, who won’t then get played anyway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JS_FFC Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 It’s a bit of a disgrace that we’ve not even had an apology statement. Seems certain that Clarke is staying on. I suppose we just need to get behind him now. Looking at Poland in particular at the euros (but the other two as well to an extent) there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be going in to the nations league group with a decent chance of staying up. The most likely way to stay up is to finish 3rd and then win the two legged playoff against someone like Ukraine or Norway, but we should be aiming to finish in the top 2 for a QF spot, in the knowledge that a slight fail to achieve that isn’t a disaster. Most important thing is avoiding the dreaded automatic relegation spot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 5 hours ago, 2426255 said: The points made are easy-to-understand, fair and reasonable in addressing why Steve Clarke approached the Hungary game the way he did. They've been supported by game-footage, quality sources and player interview. Scotland lack the quality in depth to replace Kieran Tierney, so have to make a trade-off. Scotland attack with a rest defence of a minimum of three players. Playing Scott McKenna has a reduced impact on our attacking output. Hungary have a high quality attacking player in the area where a midfielder (McLean, McGregor) playing as a ball playing centre back is vulnerable. Points #1 and #2 you've accepted in principle. Point #3 is straightforward. Hide contents 1. That's just nonsense, there is depth there in the central and wide midfield areas yet Clarke chose to persist with putting in a limited CB there and stick to a game plan that doesn't work when KT is out. 2. I wasn't referring to someone playing the old McTominay role as a third CB, it was to put them mainly into midfield but keeping one of them slightly deeper to defend against a counter attack and to start off the initial attacking phase, similar to how Kroos was playing for Germany. 3. Szoboszlai wasnt necessarily that attacking against us, seemed like he was playing more RCM area than anywhere else due to their defensive tactics. Clarke should be worrying more about his own team, how to open up more to allow for more goalscoring chances as our creativity was nowhere to be seen at this tournament in a must win game if you didn't already know that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Deans Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 5 hours ago, MarkoP said: Utter disgrace that 3 weeks on there’s not been a peep from Clarke or the SFA about the teams performance, or the way forward I hope they’re all enjoying their relaxing summer holidays. Can see it playing out that nothing gets said at all until the squad announcement for the Poland Portugal double header and then it’s a few squirmy words about learning and looking forward and possibly a couple of token new faces in the squad, who won’t then get played anyway Aye Clarke and SFA cut from the same jib. Utterly Incompetent and bereft of anything but Ill earned arrogance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloPerth Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 The turgid incompetent football aside, has there been mention of an apology from Clarke for his comments about the Argentinian referee after the Hungary game? Highly embarrassing, and something which, if said by someone involved with any other nation, would have most folk on here up in arms about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewanandmoreagain Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 As far as I can see the last competitive defeat for Spain ( since 1/1/2023 ) was 0 - 2 at Hampden A valid reason for wanting them to win tonight 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 21 hours ago, Butters Scotch said: I wasn't referring to someone playing the old McTominay role as a third CB, it was to put them mainly into midfield but keeping one of them slightly deeper to defend against a counter attack and to start off the initial attacking phase, similar to how Kroos was playing for Germany. Jack Hendry was one player who performed the deep ball-player role for Scotland. Part of the 'rest-defensive' structure when we attack. Responsible for progressing the ball from deep. We had that 'McTominay/Kroos' role in our approach against Hungary. https://streamable.com/qbf7qd -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 4 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Jack Hendry was one player who performed the deep ball-player role for Scotland. Part of the 'rest-defensive' structure when we attack. Responsible for progressing the ball from deep. We had that 'McTominay/Kroos' role in our approach against Hungary. https://streamable.com/qbf7qd I don't like football any more. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, 2426255 said: Jack Hendry was one player who performed the deep ball-player role for Scotland. Part of the 'rest-defensive' structure when we attack. Responsible for progressing the ball from deep. We had that 'McTominay/Kroos' role in our approach against Hungary. https://streamable.com/qbf7qd Yes I am well aware once more that Hendry can play a few forward passes and that goes for all CB's. A ten second clip evidences very little... I call bullshit on this, McTominay was playing way more further forward, vast majority of his touches was in the opposing half. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 38 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said: A ten second clip evidences very little... I provided a streamable link that shows all 40 of Jack Hendry's passes in the first half. It's still there if you want to look at it. The point I'm making is Jack Hendry provided one route forward to attack. Just for comparison this is Toni Kroos against Scotland. I had recorded a few weeks earlier to show that Germany built with a similar structure of three players even against a relatively 'weak' opponent in Scotland. Around the halfway line, so similar in that regard also. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Diamond For Me Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 19 hours ago, PauloPerth said: The turgid incompetent football aside, has there been mention of an apology from Clarke for his comments about the Argentinian referee after the Hungary game? Highly embarrassing, and something which, if said by someone involved with any other nation, would have most folk on here up in arms about. Really just one nation, to be fair. I don't most folk here would be bothered if, say, the Danish manager said the same thing. Even if it was someone in the England camp who said it, I think you'd get more "seething", "rattled" and Simpsons memes than genuine outrage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Algebraist Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said: I don't like football any more. Then you're in the right place! "Football" and "tactics" are outdated concepts. This thread is all about Steve Clarke's rear limb sphere contact oversight abilities. Edited July 15 by The Algebraist 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 @2343464356 has put more effort into working out Scotland's tactics that even Clarke did. He picked 11 of his pals and told them to play Brexitball. It didn't work. Simple as. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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