Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[2426255]

13 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

23rd of 24 would have been a start.

 

9 hours ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

Not finishing rock bottom out of all 24 teams with only 3 shots on target in a fairly accommodating group.  

We finished 24th as a consequence of chasing the Hungary game in the second half.

Finishing 21st instead of 24th makes no difference in a competition where the best placed 16 teams qualify.

Edited August 16 by 2426255

[2426255]

6 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

This line you're peddling about us setting our absolute ceiling as a floor is just silly. 

Take the upcoming Poland game for example. A game with no clear favourite: similar to say Hungary or Ukraine.

Fans go into a game of equals expecting to win. That's the difference between ceiling and floor for fans.

[VictorOnopko]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Take the upcoming Poland game for example. A game with no clear favourite: similar to say Hungary or Ukraine.

Fans go into a game of equals expecting to win. That's the difference between ceiling and floor for fans.

Are you a "fan"? If not, how would you describe yourself?

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Take the upcoming Poland game for example. A game with no clear favourite: similar to say Hungary or Ukraine.

Fans go into a game of equals expecting to win. That's the difference between ceiling and floor for fans.

Who are these 'fans' you group together, yet apparently float above?

I don't think many "expect" us to win such games, but they can realistically hope and aim for it, especially at home.

How that represents some sort of naive folly, you'll need to explain.  It might be better for all concerned if you don't though.

 

[Richey Edwards]

14 hours ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

Some of us spent a lot of money to watch Scotland play and we got served up a cowardly performance across all 3 games with absolutely nothing except a deflected McTominay goal to cheer for.

The games were all televised.

There was literally no need to spend a lot of money to watch Scotland play.

[Jaggy McJagface]

51 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

The games were all televised.

There was literally no need to spend a lot of money to watch Scotland play.

 

[jimbaxters]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

 

We finished 24th as a consequence of chasing the Hungary game in the second half.

Finishing 21st instead of 24th makes no difference in a competition where the best placed 16 teams qualify.

Your question was what would "fans" have viewed as success. Finishing 21st would have been disappointing but less embarrassing than what was actually achieved. 

[Skyline Drifter]

7 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

Your question was what would "fans" have viewed as success. Finishing 21st would have been disappointing but less embarrassing than what was actually achieved. 

Really? You're so embarrassed by finishing a mythical "24th" that you want the manager fired but finishing "21st" would have been ok?

There is but one "achievement" to be had here, getting out of the group. Frankly if you're not "16th" or better I couldn't give a monkeys where we finished. We didn't finish "24th" anyway. We finished 4th in Group A. End of. Other groups were weaker, other groups were stronger. Other groups had the advantage of knowing what they needed to do or facing countries that were already through and didn't really care (see Georgia for both). It's not an even playing field. The mission was to get out of the group having got to Germany. We failed at that. If that's a sacking offence so be it, you're entitled to think that, even if I don't agree. Caring whether we were statistically 24th or whatever is complete howling at the moon territory though.

Edited August 16 by Skyline Drifter

[jimbaxters]

10 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Really? You're so embarrassed by finishing a mythical "24th" that you want the manager fired but finishing "21st" would have been ok?

There is but one "achievement" to be had here, getting out of the group. Frankly if you're not "16th" or better I couldn't give a monkeys where we finished. We didn't finish "24th" anyway. We finished 4th in Group A. End of. Other groups were weaker, other groups were stronger. Other groups had the advantage of knowing what they needed to do or facing countries that were already through and didn't really care (see Georgia for both). It's not an even playing field. The mission was to get out of the group having got to Germany. We failed at that. If that's a sacking offence so be it, you're entitled to think that, even if I don't agree. Caring whether we were statistically 24th or whatever is complete howling at the moon territory though.

You've totally misunderstood what I said but I'll leave you to your Friday night rant.

[Old Bing]

31 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Really? You're so embarrassed by finishing a mythical "24th" that you want the manager fired but finishing "21st" would have been ok?

There is but one "achievement" to be had here, getting out of the group. Frankly if you're not "16th" or better I couldn't give a monkeys where we finished. We didn't finish "24th" anyway. We finished 4th in Group A. End of. Other groups were weaker, other groups were stronger. Other groups had the advantage of knowing what they needed to do or facing countries that were already through and didn't really care (see Georgia for both). It's not an even playing field. The mission was to get out of the group having got to Germany. We failed at that. If that's a sacking offence so be it, you're entitled to think that, even if I don't agree. Caring whether we were statistically 24th or whatever is complete howling at the moon territory though.

Numbers has been trying this reframing tactic for about 20 odd pages. I don't think your going to add much.

End of the day we played very poorly, way worse than expected. Way worse than we should have.

The results weren't great, but the manner of them was appalling. Amazingly even worse than the last euros. The results and performances decline is just so so bad.

But you don't think he should be sacked.

So either you watched the euros and thought the performances were OK or even good?

Or you have faith that steve can suddenly improve as manager?

[Monkey Tennis]

On 16/08/2024 at 22:39, Skyline Drifter said:

The mission was to get out of the group having got to Germany. We failed at that. If that's a sacking offence so be it, you're entitled to think that, even if I don't agree. Caring whether we were statistically 24th or whatever is complete howling at the moon territory though.

But there are shades of failure.

Alright, 24th as opposed to 21st doesn't represent a huge chasm, but the fact is that we performed badly across our games, offering less of an attacking threat than anyone else present at the tournament.

It's not just a question of Clarke being under pressure because we didn't get through.  We've done that at tournaments before, but emerged with credit.  This time, we absolutely didn't.  It's disingenuous to reduce it to simply whether or not we qualified for the knock-out rounds.

Edited August 19 by Monkey Tennis

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

But there are shades of failure.

Alright, 24th as opposed to 21st doesn't represent a huge chasm, but the fact is that we performed badly across our games, offering less of an attacking threat that anyone else present at the tournament.

It's not just a question of Clarke being under pressure because we didn't get through.  We've done that at tournaments before, but emerged with credit.  This time, we absolutely didn't.  It's disingenuous to reduce it to simply whether or not we qualified for the knock-out rounds.

And its complete fallacy to 'invent' this 24th ranking and then use it as an axe to beat the manager with whilst suggesting a mythical 21st (or anything else less than 16th) would be acceptable. Its simply not 'a thing'. Its not only not a huge chasm, its not a chasm at all. 

If people want to say it wasnt good enough and the manager should go then thats their prerogative. I dont agree but that's fine. We dont have to all agree and unless Ian Maxwell has an account on here none of us get to decide anyway.

Its this 'shades of failure' nonsense that needs fired into the sea. So what we finished statistically 24th. We could have shut up shop, taken a draw v Hungary and finished 18th instead. We were literally 10 seconds from doing so. Would that be more acceptable? For me it would have been LESS acceptable. We tried to gamble for a win to get through and paid the harshest of prices. We operated without a passable right back, without our best forward and without our best central defender for half the games. These handicaps are outwith the control of the manager. Its a harsh jury who offers no understanding of that.

[Chripper]

3 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

And its complete fallacy to 'invent' this 24th ranking and then use it as an axe to beat the manager with whilst suggesting a mythical 21st (or anything else less than 16th) would be acceptable. Its simply not 'a thing'. Its not only not a huge chasm, its not a chasm at all. 

If people want to say it wasnt good enough and the manager should go then thats their prerogative. I dont agree but that's fine. We dont have to all agree and unless Ian Maxwell has an account on here none of us get to decide anyway.

Its this 'shades of failure' nonsense that needs fired into the sea. So what we finished statistically 24th. We could have shut up shop, taken a draw v Hungary and finished 18th instead. We were literally 10 seconds from doing so. Would that be more acceptable? For me it would have been LESS acceptable. We tried to gamble for a win to get through and paid the harshest of prices. We operated without a passable right back, without our best forward and without our best central defender for half the games. These handicaps are outwith the control of the manager. Its a harsh jury who offers no understanding of that.

Which is the correct answer.

Not even mentioning the stonewall penalty we were denied.

Personally, I don't get why people are still sitting in Shiva over Euro 24. It's done.

Move on.

These aren't the druids you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

Edited August 17 by Chripper

[2426255]

21 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I don't think many "expect" us to win such games, but they can realistically hope and aim for it, especially at home.

That mindset isn't applied to Euro-2024. It was a realistic hope, aim or aspiration to qualify.

Anyone setting that as their minimum expectation weren't being realistic.

Edited August 17 by 2426255

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

That mindset isn't applied to Euro-2024. It was a realistic hope, aim or aspiration to qualify.

Anyone setting that as their minimum expectation weren't being realistic.

Which is presumably why nobody did.

[Old Bing]

8 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

And its complete fallacy to 'invent' this 24th ranking and then use it as an axe to beat the manager with whilst suggesting a mythical 21st (or anything else less than 16th) would be acceptable. Its simply not 'a thing'. Its not only not a huge chasm, its not a chasm at all. 

If people want to say it wasnt good enough and the manager should go then thats their prerogative. I dont agree but that's fine. We dont have to all agree and unless Ian Maxwell has an account on here none of us get to decide anyway.

Its this 'shades of failure' nonsense that needs fired into the sea. So what we finished statistically 24th. We could have shut up shop, taken a draw v Hungary and finished 18th instead. We were literally 10 seconds from doing so. Would that be more acceptable? For me it would have been LESS acceptable. We tried to gamble for a win to get through and paid the harshest of prices. We operated without a passable right back, without our best forward and without our best central defender for half the games. These handicaps are outwith the control of the manager. Its a harsh jury who offers no understanding of that.

Aw yeah I forgot we were the only team missing players, and everyone else got to wait until they had a full strength team

Regarding shades of failure, if you watched that and thought the performance of the team was good or ok. Then I would say you know very little about football.

Edited August 17 by Old Bing

[Monkey Tennis]

10 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

It's this 'shades of failure' nonsense that needs fired into the sea. 

Good God SD, where to start with this drivel: style or content?

Let's go with the former.  To see you reduced to using witless P&B staples like "needs fired into the sea" is palpably shocking.  I feel grubby reading it.  It's as if I've just caught Stephen Dobbie shoplifting or something.

If we move onto the sentiment itself, it's almost as bad.  Of course there are shades of failure.  If we finish second on goal difference under Murphy this season, then lose the play-off final on penalties, are you suggesting that it'll represent a similar level of failure to that we've just endured with Bartley?

Of course the nature, as well as the fact, of our elimination plays into people's views regarding Clarke continuing in the role.

Come on Man - Standards.    We've a big game this afternoon and you're needing to pull yourself together.

[Jives Miguel]

4 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Good God SD, where to start with this drivel: style or content?

Let's go with the former.  To see you reduced to using witless P&B staples like "needs fired into the sea" is palpably shocking.  I feel grubby reading it.  It's as if I've just caught Stephen Dobbie shoplifting or something.

If we move onto the sentiment itself, it's almost as bad.  Of course there are shades of failure.  If we finish second on goal difference under Murphy this season, then lose the play-off final on penalties, are you suggesting that it'll represent a similar level of failure to that we've just endured with Bartley?

Of course the nature, as well as the fact, of our elimination plays into people's views regarding Clarke continuing in the role.

Come on Man - Standards.    We've a big game this afternoon and you're needing to pull yourself together.

In a thread full of, to quote Skyline Drifter, "moon howling" idiocy, this might be the worst post. 

You are seriously trying to compare an utter nonsense made up ranking of teams at Euro 2024 - who played 3 games, not even against each other or the same teams - with a 36 game league season?  

[Old Bing]

4 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Good God SD, where to start with this drivel: style or content?

Let's go with the former.  To see you reduced to using witless P&B staples like "needs fired into the sea" is palpably shocking.  I feel grubby reading it.  It's as if I've just caught Stephen Dobbie shoplifting or something.

If we move onto the sentiment itself, it's almost as bad.  Of course there are shades of failure.  If we finish second on goal difference under Murphy this season, then lose the play-off final on penalties, are you suggesting that it'll represent a similar level of failure to that we've just endured with Bartley?

Of course the nature, as well as the fact, of our elimination plays into people's views regarding Clarke continuing in the role.

Come on Man - Standards.    We've a big game this afternoon and you're needing to pull yourself together.

People will literally convince themselves of and then say just about anything rather than just admit they got it wrong. It's a flaw which holds back so many people.

If it was any other team they were talking about they would be able to look at it and go, yeah they were absolutely crap. But that would me they got it wrong, so instead you get this nonsense.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

In a thread full of, to quote Skyline Drifter, "moon howling" idiocy, this might be the worst post. 

You are seriously trying to compare an utter nonsense made up ranking of teams at Euro 2024 - who played 3 games, not even against each other or the same teams - with a 36 game league season?  

Nope, but I am challenging the notion that there's no such thing as "shades of failure".

I'm sorry that you find all this so terribly confusing.