Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Okay, no problem. I'm happy to agree to disagree with your interpretation and move on. 

My interpretation?  Otherwise known as the capacity to read words.

Your posturing is laughable Mate, and I'm afraid we can all see it.

[Old Bing]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Gibberish 

Is there a side in the euros you think played badly? Or do you think every team did equally well?

[2426255]

53 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

My interpretation?  Otherwise known as the capacity to read words.

We don't agree, what's the point in continuing? I think you're being pedantic and you are picking me up for not using the prescise phrase.

I thought it better to just move on and agree to disagree.

[VictorOnopko]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Okay, no problem. I'm happy to agree to disagree with your interpretation and move on. 

I'm glad you mentioned that. It takes time to analyse, compare to different games and evidence. I apologise for the delay, but I'll describe the ideas as they relate to the game against Hungary without the evidence or detail:

Andy Robertson

• Scotland's primary method of attack is via the wide areas.  Robertson is crucial to Scotland's wide attacks.  Clarke hasn't historically used Robertson in a left-back role because he is more valuable to us in attacking zones. 

• Robertson rotates into the front-3. 
• Robertson made zero crosses from open play against Hungary. 

Kieran Tierney

• The number of times Tierney dovetails or rotates with Robertson varies with the strength of the opposition.  Against Germany and Switzerland there was minimal rotation between the two players. 
• Playing McKenna allowed us to continue to play Robertson higher while replacing the defensive aspect of Tierney's game.    

Scott McTominay

• Scott McTominay played in the Christie/Armstrong role. A role he hasn't played for Scotland before Euro-2024.

I have evidenced these Scotland sided points from the game and compared with the games across 2024: Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Finland, Germany and Switzerland.

I haven't looked at the Hungary side of things, how Clarke addressed the issues with the LHS in the second half and I haven't established the why, but those are the concepts.

1) It isn't his "intepretation" - he pointed out quite clearly that your claim re: what the poll which started this thread was about was completely false, and that you were trying to twist its meaning to win an argument.  It simply wasn't about "minimum expectations". You were, once again, found out, and are now trying to hastily move on. 

2) I'm not sure what point you are making with that stuff, or how it does what you want it to (i.e., counters the view that the Euros were a fiasco for Clarke and Scotland), but has it occurred to you that positivist, deductive, objective analysts - which is what you seem to be posing as as - don't start out having already decided on their (subjective), unshakable conclusions? You are a fan - of Steve Clarke - who cannot accept that he f*cked up.  No one will be dazzled by your little diagrams or green ticks.

[Ken Deans]

Won't b back till this nation depressing useless clown is gone. World's best fans who all spent hard earned cash to be witnessing that. Do the right thing Clarke.

No integrity so u wont

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, 2426255 said:

 I think you're being pedantic and you are picking me up for not using the prescise phrase.

 "Expectations" and "minimum expectations" are totally different things.  Pointing that out does not involve pedantry.

[Butters Scotch]

On 17/08/2024 at 08:45, Monkey Tennis said:

Which is presumably why nobody did.

Apart from numpties like Chripper who expected to win the Euros now he's Clarke's biggest fans

[Gordon EF]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Okay, no problem. I'm happy to agree to disagree with your interpretation and move on. 

I'm glad you mentioned that. It takes time to analyse, compare to different games and evidence. I apologise for the delay, but I'll describe the ideas as they relate to the game against Hungary without the evidence or detail:

Andy Robertson

• Scotland's primary method of attack is via the wide areas.  Robertson is crucial to Scotland's wide attacks.  Clarke hasn't historically used Robertson in a left-back role because he is more valuable to us in attacking zones. 

• Robertson rotates into the front-3. 
• Robertson made zero crosses from open play against Hungary. 

Kieran Tierney

• The number of times Tierney dovetails or rotates with Robertson varies with the strength of the opposition.  Against Germany and Switzerland there was minimal rotation between the two players. 
• Playing McKenna allowed us to continue to play Robertson higher while replacing the defensive aspect of Tierney's game.    

Scott McTominay

• Scott McTominay played in the Christie/Armstrong role. A role he hasn't played for Scotland before Euro-2024.

I have evidenced these Scotland sided points from the game and compared with the games across 2024: Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Finland, Germany and Switzerland.

I haven't looked at the Hungary side of things, how Clarke addressed the issues with the LHS in the second half and I haven't established the why, but those are the concepts.

[Old Bing]

Numbers tied in knots again

[2426255]

14 hours ago, VictorOnopko said:

I'm not sure what point you are making with that stuff, or how it does what you want it to (i.e., counters the view that the Euros were a fiasco for Clarke and Scotland)

It was to provide an idea of why it takes time to analyse the Hungary game as well as a few of the concepts being looked at.

Some ideas in there haven't so far been raised in discussion as far as I have seen such as McTominay playing as a left sided #10, Robertson rarely playing as a 'left-back' under Clarke and the lack of crosses from the left hand side against Hungary which is normally an important part of our game.

7 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 "Expectations" and "minimum expectations" are totally different things.  Pointing that out does not involve pedantry.

I had used the phrase "minimum expectations" once before I created the thread + poll. Expectations relative to aspirations was refined into minimum expectations over the course of subsequent discussion. You're being pedantic. 

Edited August 19 by 2426255

[VictorOnopko]

8 hours ago, 2426255 said:

It was to provide an idea of why it takes time to analyse the Hungary game as well as a few of the concepts being looked at.

Some ideas in there haven't so far been raised in discussion as far as I have seen such as McTominay playing as a left sided #10, Robertson rarely playing as a 'left-back' under Clarke and the lack of crosses from the left hand side against Hungary which is normally an important part of our game.

I had used the phrase "minimum expectations" once before I created the thread + poll. Expectations relative to aspirations was refined into minimum expectations over the course of subsequent discussion. You're being pedantic. 

 

[bleedingums]

7 hours ago, kennie makevin said:

Do not use the saintly Larry David in an attempt to shut down debate, you half-witted dumbass f**k... Don't like it, fine. Not interested, fine. Just leave it to those who are and move on.

[2426255]

7 hours ago, VictorOnopko said:

LD was a quick way to express the view that very few folk on this forum are eagerly awaiting his "analysis" based on striking "concepts", two months after Scotland's dismal failure. If you are, fill your boots when he finally explains why Clarke was great all along and no Scotland fan should have had a "minimum expectation" of not stinking out the finals.

I'm not saying Clarke was great or terrible. I'm saying fans are hard work most of the time, but particularly when we lose. Finding statistics to slant everything to the most negative interpretation possible. It's always toys out the pram if the result goes the wrong way and Euro-2024 predictably was no different.

Scotland didn't stink out the finals. We had one particularly bad game against Germany and two middle of the road performances against Switzerland and Hungary. We went out because we couldn't beat Hungary - an even game against an opponent similar in level to ourselves. 

Whether it's stinking out the Euros, glorious failure or something in between (as was the case in reality) there existed no circumstance where failure to qualify from our group would have been met by the support at large in a different way than throwing a tantrum or 'aye but Georgia'.

[Old Bing]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I'm not saying Clarke was great or terrible. I'm saying fans are hard work most of the time, but particularly when we lose. Finding statistics to slant everything to the most negative interpretation possible. It's always toys out the pram if the result goes the wrong way and Euro-2024 predictably was no different.

Scotland didn't stink out the finals. We had one particularly bad game against Germany and two middle of the road performances against Switzerland and Hungary. We went out because we couldn't beat Hungary - an even game against an opponent similar in level to ourselves. 

Whether it's stinking out the Euros, glorious failure or something in between (as was the case in reality) there existed no circumstance where failure to qualify from our group would have been met by the support at large in a different way than throwing a tantrum or 'aye but Georgia'.

I think this explains things tbh, just simply a lack of knowledge about football from you. 

I mean if you can't see with your eyes we stank out the tournament. Then the stats alone are very clear.

[Billy Jean King]

On 19/08/2024 at 06:46, 2426255 said:

Okay, no problem. I'm happy to agree to disagree with your interpretation and move on. 

I'm glad you mentioned that. It takes time to analyse, compare to different games and evidence. I apologise for the delay, but I'll describe the ideas as they relate to the game against Hungary without the evidence or detail:

Andy Robertson

• Scotland's primary method of attack is via the wide areas.  Robertson is crucial to Scotland's wide attacks.  Clarke hasn't historically used Robertson in a left-back role because he is more valuable to us in attacking zones. 

• Robertson rotates into the front-3. 
• Robertson made zero crosses from open play against Hungary. 

Kieran Tierney

• The number of times Tierney dovetails or rotates with Robertson varies with the strength of the opposition.  Against Germany and Switzerland there was minimal rotation between the two players. 
• Playing McKenna allowed us to continue to play Robertson higher while replacing the defensive aspect of Tierney's game.    

Scott McTominay

• Scott McTominay played in the Christie/Armstrong role. A role he hasn't played for Scotland before Euro-2024.

I have evidenced these Scotland sided points from the game and compared with the games across 2024: Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Finland, Germany and Switzerland.

I haven't looked at the Hungary side of things, how Clarke addressed the issues with the LHS in the second half and I haven't established the why, but those are the concepts.

I looked in here for the first time in weeks and all I can say is ffs man get a life. This is crazy stuff at mere supporter level. It's all moot anyway as clearly SC is remaining as manager whether that is right or wrong. We didn't perform particularly well, everyone can see that but keeping raking the cold embers like you seem obsessed with isn't going to change anything and imo is a total waste of your time. To analyse to this obsessive level for so long is mental behaviour. 

[2426255]

15 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

This is crazy stuff at mere supporter level. It's all moot anyway as clearly SC is remaining as manager whether that is right or wrong. We didn't perform particularly well, everyone can see that but keeping raking the cold embers like you seem obsessed with isn't going to change anything and imo is a total waste of your time. To analyse to this obsessive level for so long is mental behaviour. 

It's about understanding, not obsession. 

Spoiler

On 19/08/2024 at 06:46, 2426255 said:

Scotland's primary method of attack is via the wide areas.  Robertson is crucial to Scotland's wide attacks.  Clarke hasn't historically used Robertson in a left-back role because he is more valuable to us in attacking zones. Playing McKenna allowed us to continue to play Robertson higher while replacing the defensive aspect of Tierney's game.  

Take the point above as an example of looking under the hood:

Robertson started for Scotland as a left-back against Gibraltar. Prior to that was 5 years ago against San Marino. Scotland played a 'back-4' against Northern Ireland (2024), Norway and Georgia (2023), Ukraine and Ireland (2022) when he was injured and against Turkey (2022) where he was deployed in midfield. 

Robertson performed as a left-back for periods within games when were chasing (Spain, Norway, Israel) and covering a sending off (Germany). Against Hungary he was subbed off for Lewis Morgan, but replaced by Kenny McLean who moved to left-back for the last 10-mins. 

Spoiler

That doesn't strike anyone as odd? How do we explain that overall picture? Perhaps it's just coincidence or Clarke is a numpty.

Since Robertson has been used as a wing-back (2020) he has created 10 goals for the team. There is at least a basis for the idea that Robertson playing at wing-back is not dependent on Tierney being in the team alongside him. If that idea holds water then it changes the way we understand Clarke's decision to replace Tierney with McKenna as not a negative, defensive decision.

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

It's about understanding, not obsession. 

  Hide contents

 

Take the point above as an example of looking under the hood:

Robertson started for Scotland as a left-back against Gibraltar. Prior to that was 5 years ago against San Marino. Scotland played a 'back-4' against Northern Ireland (2024), Norway and Georgia (2023), Ukraine and Ireland (2022) when he was injured and against Turkey (2022) where he was deployed in midfield. 

Robertson performed as a left-back for periods within games when were chasing (Spain, Norway, Israel) and covering a sending off (Germany). Against Hungary he was subbed off for Lewis Morgan, but replaced by Kenny McLean who moved to left-back for the last 10-mins. 

  Hide contents

That doesn't strike anyone as odd? How do we explain that overall picture? Perhaps it's just coincidence or Clarke is a numpty.

Since Robertson has been used as a wing-back (2020) he has created 10 goals for the team. There is at least a basis for the idea that Robertson playing at wing-back is not dependent on Tierney being in the team alongside him. If that idea holds water then it changes the way we understand Clarke's decision to replace Tierney with McKenna as not a negative, defensive decision.

1. Definition of obsession - 'Having or showing excessive or compulsive concern with something' - This 100% is you on this topic.

2. Robertson playing as either a LB/LWB will invariably get forward, it's one of our main attacking threats so he has to get forward at any opportunity if we are to play to our strengths. It don't matter if Tierney is next to him or not to do this but having a such a quality player next to him that has the engine to get forward and defend all the same improves his own game and the team.

Now replace Tierney with McKenna, someone unable to beat a man, play neat one two's, throw a quality ball into the box or has the engine to rampage down the wing then inevitably, it is a defensive change. The whole team dynamic changes then. Let's say you replaced Tierney with an additonal midfielder, someone like a Christie in his role for Bournemouth then I would say it is most certainly a positive tactical decision. 

[Quentin Taranbino]

Stopped reading this thread about 20 pages back when it descended into waffle.

Has Clarke or the SFA come out and addressed performance at Euros yet? I'm not sure exactly what I would expect but I would have thought at some point there would be a post mortem of our performance and then some sort of statement. Even if it's a token "Whilst we were hopeful, it didn't pan out the way we wanted, we fully back Clarke into Nations League" type statement.

Has Clarke done any media at all since we bombed out? I can't recall even a newspaper interview 

[Chripper]

What's to address?

The squad is, barring 4 or 5 players, SPL/English Championship standard.

As it stands, two of our best players (Gilmour and McTominay) are bench warmers for their clubs. Not to mention Tierney, who is made of a breadstick.

Personally, I want a manager who is able to take our waifs and strays and gel them into a team who is capable of successfully qualifying.

Clarke has done that. Therefore, he deserves to be the one to call it a day.

He, or the SFA certainly don't owe anyone an apology and/or explanation.

Will Brendan Rodgers or the Celtic board give the Celtic fans an apology and/or explanation when  they inevitably fail to lay a glove on the three teams in their European Cup first group stage?

No.

Will the Celtic fans be calling for the head of Brendan Rodgers when they inevitably fail to lay a glove on the three teams in their European Cup first group stage?

Only the incredibly spoilt and entitled ones.

it's only the incredibly spoilt and entitled Scotland fans who want Steve Clarke to leave.

Thankfully, that seems to be the minority. The majority lived through the two decades of doom and can appreciate what Steve Clarke has done.

A part of me kinda wants Steve Clarke to leave and then seeing the next guy fail to qualify for his campaign(s).

I'll be there with a "I told you so" and with select pages of this thread all loaded.

Might have to wait till he leaves of his own according, first.

The aforementioned will happen, though. So, I'd say to the Clarke outers. Enjoy qualifying will it lasts.

I certainly am.

PS: It won't last. The next manager will probably be Stewart Baxter (if he isn't a myth) or Billy Stark).

PPS: I'm not sitting in Shiva over Euro 24. It's over.

Edited August 21 by Chripper

[Old Bing]

45 minutes ago, Chripper said:

What's to address?

The squad is, barring 4 or 5 players, SPL/English Championship standard.

As it stands, two of our best players (Gilmour and McTominay) are bench warmers for their clubs. Not to mention Tierney, who is made of a breadstick.

Personally, I want a manager who is able to take our waifs and strays and gel them into a team who is capable of successfully qualifying.

Clarke has done that. Therefore, he deserves to be the one to call it a day.

He, or the SFA certainly don't owe anyone an apology and/or explanation.

Will Brendan Rodgers or the Celtic board give the Celtic fans an apology and/or explanation when  they inevitably fail to lay a glove on the three teams in their European Cup first group stage?

No.

Will the Celtic fans be calling for the head of Brendan Rodgers when they inevitably fail to lay a glove on the three teams in their European Cup first group stage?

Only the incredibly spoilt and entitled ones.

it's only the incredibly spoilt and entitled Scotland fans who want Steve Clarke to leave.

Thankfully, that seems to be the minority. The majority lived through the two decades of doom and can appreciate what Steve Clarke has done.

A part of me kinda wants Steve Clarke to leave and then seeing the next guy fail to qualify for his campaign(s).

I'll be there with a "I told you so" and with select pages of this thread all loaded.

Might have to wait till he leaves of his own according, first.

The aforementioned will happen, though. So, I'd say to the Clarke outers. Enjoy qualifying will it lasts.

I certainly am.

PS: It won't last. The next manager will probably be Stewart Baxter (if he isn't a myth) or Billy Stark).

PPS: I'm not sitting in Shiva over Euro 24. It's over.

Yes you've said this repeatedly despite it not being in any way accurate.

Our squad is more than comparable with Switzerland or Hungary. Teams we couldn't lay a glove on. We got embarrassed playing teams absolutely on out level. So that's why it's shit.

It's absolutely zero like celtic playing Real Madrid or Man City.