Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[Derryboy62]

21 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I see a lot of posters on this board mock the EPL on the #Barclays thread, but they're there weekly to tune into it. I think it's only normal that Scottish players will become hyped in a similar way to English players. We have good players, but the idea that Hungary are a bunch of jobbers that we 'should' be beating is a sour take. 

The Scottish team has improved over the last few years and that's one of the things that comes with success unfortunately: entitlement.

I'll watch any Scottish Premier or championship game before any EPL game. 

The EPL is the worst league in the world for entertainment imo. The vast majority of games are boring and all the razzmatazz in the world doesn't change that. 

Has the Scotland really improved all that much over the last few years?  Haven't we just qualified because Uefa want more clubs in the European Championships to make more money from television and ticket sales?

We're still not one of the best 16 teams in Europe which we'll need to be if we want to qualify for a World Cup (30 years and counting by the time of the next one since we've qualified)  

 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

5 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

Seriously? That's your argument – along with mass immigration? What a facile take.

How can you seriously argue that (eg) Croatia – World Cup runners-up six years ago and semi-finalists three times since 1998 – will never come close again? Where's the reasoning there? 

It's a disingenuous angle, too: the post you replied to clearly wasn't just talking about the World Cup, but of course you avoid mentioning the Euros, where Denmark have been at least quarter-finalists on four occasions in the last 40 years, semi-finalists twice, and winners once.

We're underperforming, massively.

The ‘we need more immigration’ line is just a ridiculous take. How about we just develop good footballers & mould them into a coherent team? Recent World Cup & Euros winning sides such as Italy, Spain & Argentina have all had fairly homogenous sides in terms of ethnicity. The same applies to our successful contemporaries such as Denmark, Croatia & even Wales who have been far more successful in recent years. 

[itzdrk]

38 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Man for man we have better players than Hungary, it's not really a debate.

If you want to twist that to everyone overrated out players that's fine. But I didn't read anyone saying man for man were better than Germany.

We just don't though.  

[2426255]

Just now, Derryboy62 said:

I'll watch any Scottish Premier or championship game before any EPL game. 

The EPL is the worst league in the world for entertainment imo. The vast majority of games are boring and all the razzmatazz in the world doesn't change that. 

Has the Scotland really improved all that much over the last few years?  Haven't we just qualified because Uefa want more clubs in the European Championships to make more money from television and ticket sales?

We're still not one of the best 16 teams in Europe which we'll need to be if we want to qualify for a World Cup (30 years and counting by the time of the next one since we've qualified)  

 

Scotland finished within the boundaries of where we are presently as a team. The best we could have hoped for was to qualify for the round of 16.

To qualify from the group was achievable, but also aspirational. Is setting your minimum expectation equal to the teams maximum capability realistic? Everyone wants continual progression, again is that realistic?

We are at the last step. That's the hardest step to make and will probably take the longest. I think it's reasonable to accept that we might not be able to make that step, but also to accept that we are trying to do that even if we aren't successful right away or ever.

[Old Bing]

2 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

We just don't though.  

No we do

[ICTChris]

2 hours ago, SH Panda said:

Agreed on that last part, Belgian, Dutch and Portuguese teams are renowned for their fantastic diversity.

We should be trying to match this, get a regionalised immigration policy and get as many immigrants in as possible. Might take 10-20 years but our player pool, and player diversity will increase a fair bit.

We will never be as large as Portugal, Belgium or the Netherlands but only need around 18% increase to be as big as Serbia.

Bonus points if we can target immigrants from regions that provide proportionally more footballers - southern Europe, north Africa, West Africa (and those of West African descent).

Not just football, it would be a great thing for society as a whole. Scotland is dangerously homogenised, we are falling below even Ireland and the chasm will continue to grow unless we act decivisely (sadly UK government control immigration but Scottish government should be lobbying them).

There were more immigrants to the UK in 2022, the last year that we have figures for I think, than there were between 1980 and 2000.  The figures are the highest on record.  Scotland has proportionally fewer immigrants than England - I think that we have 8% of the population of the UK but around 5% of immigrants come here.

I have to say I think that the idea of the Scottish government lobbying Westminister for more immigrants of West African descent so that the Scottish national team can be improved seems... unlikely for a number of reasons that I think are quite obvious.

[DA Baracus]

We actually need more emigration.

We need more young folk getting away from the shite coaching in Scotland and the boring Celtic/Sevco crap that stifles ambition for too many players.

Get them away to other countries where they can develop skills in a much better coaching environment. Get them somewhere where they won't be constantly linked with a dead end move to Celtic or Sevco and where there is less chance of the players being big fans of one of them and having the extent of their ambition to play for them. Get them away from the dour, shitebag mentality that far too many folk in this county have and spread.

Get them exposed to different footballing cultures and different cultures in general.

Edited June 25 by DA Baracus

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

27 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

The Italy, Spain and Argentina side are all significantly more diverse than Scotland.

Spain are starting two French cente halves....

Denmark are also significantly more diverse than ourselves, only Croatia (from the melting pot of the Balkans) is somewhat comparable from an immigration perspective.

Easy way to improve things though, more likely Scotland imports an Ibrahimovic (or his parents) than Scotland (or Sweden) produces one.

Puyol & Pique started the World Cup final for Spain, neither of whom are French as far as I’m aware. 

Which Danish players who started against England are from an immigrant background?

 

 

[ICTChris]

5 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Puyol & Pique started the World Cup final for Spain, neither of whom are French as far as I’m aware. 

Which Danish players who started against England are from an immigrant background?

 

From a quick Wikipedia-ing, the only players in the starting XI who has any reference to a non-Danish family background are Jannick Vestergaard, whose mother is German and Kasper Schmeical, whose grandad is Polish.

[Derryboy62]

39 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Scotland finished within the boundaries of where we are presently as a team. The best we could have hoped for was to qualify for the round of 16.

To qualify from the group was achievable, but also aspirational. Is setting your minimum expectation equal to the teams maximum capability realistic? Everyone wants continual progression, again is that realistic?

We are at the last step. That's the hardest step to make and will probably take the longest. I think it's reasonable to accept that we might not be able to make that step, but also to accept that we are trying to do that even if we aren't successful right away or ever.

Is it realistic to play 3 CBs ( none of which can step into midfield ) plus 2 holding midfielders and expect anything different from what we witnessed?

 

[Gordon EF]

39 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

Uruguay pretty much totally outsource youth development to larger nations

Utter pish I'm afraid. Take the top 10 mist valuable Uruguayans on transfermarkt, only Bentancur didn't come through the youth system of a Uruguayan club. The other 9 did.

I've spent a lot of time in Uruguay. There are huge numbers of kids playing organised football everywhere. Their facilities aren't the best quality, but they have a lot of them.

The typical pathway for Uruguayan players is to come through the youth development system at a Uruguayan club, get into the first team very early and, if they're any good, move abroad as quickly as possible.

[eez-eh]

42 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

It's not really an argument, more of a fact.

Croatia getting to the final was incredibly unusual, they lucked out facing the worlds greatest underachievers in England, once they faced a good side in France they were hammered. They had a generational player in Modric but this latest tournament will be their likely future, you can't beat numbers over the very long term.

Denmark won the euros the year they didn't qualify for it (Scotland actually qualified). Were it not for the war in Yugoslavia they wouldn't have even been in the tournament.

You've picked the two overpeforming sides out, but the reality is that Scotland does better than most sides our size, as well as many far larger.

Our domestic game obliterates our peers, and our WC qualification record is superb.

We aren't the best, but we are far off the worst.

All easily researchable online.

Can we learn from Denmark and Croatia? Certainly, Croatia and Uruguay pretty much totally outsource youth development to larger nations, it's probably a good idea.

It’s tremendous how you cherry pick everything. You’re away on another thread saying that losing to Hungary is expected because population. But whenever comparable countries who consistently out-perform us are brought it up there’s a myriad of other reasons to explain it.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

4 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

From a quick Wikipedia-ing, the only players in the starting XI who has any reference to a non-Danish family background are Jannick Vestergaard, whose mother is German and Kasper Schmeical, whose grandad is Polish.

Interesting. Where they’re going wrong is a lack of immigration IMO. Only then can they produce players like Eriksen, Hojlund, Hojbjerg & Christensen. 

Maybe it’s actually a lack of poverty? We could go down the Brazil route and introduce favelas to Scotland?
 

 

[George Parr]

It may not result in his sacking but the putrid stench of xenophobia is going to follow Steve Clarke now. That stain is not easily removed. 

[Gordon EF]

The immigration shtick can get in the bin as well. Whether it's countries like France, Belgium, Switzerland with 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants in their teams or countries like Morocco who're filled with the children of emmigrants from Spain, France, Belgium, etc. The common denominator is that countries that have good youth development produce good players, regardless of where their parents are from or which country they end up representing.

That's deranged, Gordon Strachan level Facebook da' patter.

Edited June 25 by Gordon EF

[DA Baracus]

18 minutes ago, George Parr said:

It may not result in his sacking but the putrid stench of xenophobia is going to follow Steve Clarke now. That stain is not easily removed. 

He needs to answer questions on that and not be given an easy ride about it.

[Ludo*1]

50 minutes ago, George Parr said:

It may not result in his sacking but the putrid stench of xenophobia is going to follow Steve Clarke now. That stain is not easily removed. 

It's barely being looked at by the media. It's already being treated as water under the bridge.

Unreal.

[Bad Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

It's barely being looked at by the media. It's already being treated as water under the bridge.

Unreal.

Given that all our major newspapers pander to xenophobes at all times, on front and back pages alike, this is sadly no surprise. 

[DiegoDiego]

2 hours ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Recent World Cup & Euros winning sides such as Italy, Spain & Argentina have all had fairly homogenous sides in terms of ethnicity. 

I'm not going to go through their squad, but Argentina as a country is full of Italian (and Spanish) passport holders, packed with second-generation immigrants who could play for their grandparents' country.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

17 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

.

Their current team is Robin Le Normand and Aymeric Laporte, two french centre halves. Their star wingers are both 2nd generation African immigrants.

I said the Denmark squad is more diverse than the Scottish squad - and they are, quite comfortably..

Yeah I was referring to Spain’s most successful team, you randomly decided to discuss their current Basque centre halves.

Yeah Denmark have a few benchwarmers from immigrant backgrounds. Doesn’t really back up your point whatsoever. Scotland’s starting 11 is actually more diverse, and yet somehow we have performed worse. Doesn’t make any sense!