Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

You never really get any great world class managers who decide they want a bit of a challenge and decide to try and manage a much smaller club (football manager style)

Managers depend to a larger degree on players. A player can play well even with rubbish around them. A manager can only do so much with the cards in his deck. Once a manger fails at a lower level then to an extent that becomes his level. Recently Steve Clarke said if he wasn't successful at Kilmarnock then he had accepted that he would have been done as a manager. Mark Hughes isn't considered for any Premier League job anymore, that kind of thing.

The really well-off guys doing it for fun? If you don't see it then maybe it's just not that much fun being a manager.

10 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Well that's just in your own head. 

Think you're the only guy on here along with your wee pal Chripper/SlayerX that couldn't see what the problems were with our recent form under Clarke. 

I see England played three 'clunky' centre backs yesterday. Saka and Trippier at wing-back. England fans would be raging if they'd lost in a similar way to Scotland fans after Hungary.

Edited July 7 by 2426255

[BukyOHare]

Any manager in any profession or walk of life should be judged on the results of the team they have to work with and a lot of that is getting more out of the collective group than is expected.

See the performances put in by Switzerland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Albania, Georgia and Turkey in this tournament to see teams overachieving and then compare it to what we managed to produce. Gutless, spineless, dull, ineffective and negative performances lacking spirit, fight, desire and a willingness to make something positive happen.

Clarke is inflexible, stubborn and ultimately too loyal to the players who once upon a time made plan A work. There is evidently no plan B, C or D.

A manager can definitely overstay the point where they get the best out of the group under them, the voice just doesn't have the same impact or reach previous heights or achievements. It happens and I think what we saw play out in these 3 games is proof that it is definitely time for him to go.

The players individually and as a group don't escape huge criticism either, sitting at home watching the aforementioned teams performances surely made the lot of them realise how underwhelming their performances have actually been.

Perhaps even providing a few home truths to the bigger names in our squad who were posted missing over the 3 games.

[Chripper]

Putting things into perspective a wee bit.

Switzerland's back 3 + keeper: Inter Milan; Torino, Manchester City, Newcastle.

Scotland's back 3 + keeper: Norwich; Norwich, Al-Ettifaq, Arsenal.

2 Serie A and 2 EPL players vs 2 English Championship, 1 Saudi and 1 EPL player.

If that isn't good enough, the Swiss Keeper won Serie A and one of the center backs won the EPL.

Edited July 7 by Chripper

[BukyOHare]

Just now, Chripper said:

Putting things into perspective a wee bit.

We've got a player named as the best in his position in Serie A. Let that sink in for a minute.

The truth is, if fit, he would've got minimal minutes under Clarke in this tournament.

[immcinto]

1 hour ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

On the topic of managers that are way too good to be managing Scotland, I always wonder this as a general point about club managers as well.

You never really get any great world class managers who decide they want a bit of a challenge and decide to try and manage a much smaller club (football manager style)

Now whilst the main reasons are obvious, I would have thought we might see the odd or two here and there who aren't arsed about money as they have plenty but just want the challenge of a cold Tuesday night up at Elgin. 

You see the odd ex international footballer here and there play non league but perhaps that's because the retirement age of a footballer is much younger than that of a manager. 

 

Even on a much smaller local level here in Scotland, I'm surprised you don't see things like Alex McLeish managing Edinburgh Uni and shit like that

It always comes down to money. 

You get what you pay for. Steve Clarke has done well considering his skillset. If we pay more money we would get a manager at a level way above non-OF SPFL. Again, not much point us hiring Guardiola, as our players are not at that level, but we need someone who is at least Championship level. 

 

[BukyOHare]

2 minutes ago, Chripper said:

Putting things into perspective a wee bit.

Switzerland's back 3 + keeper: Inter Milan; Torino, Manchester City, Newcastle.

Scotland's back 3 + keeper: Norwich; Norwich, Al-Ettifaq, Arsenal.

2 Serie A and 2 EPL players vs 2 English Championship, 1 Saudi and 1 EPL player.

If that isn't good enough, the Swiss Keeper won Serie A and one of the center backs won the EPL.

But yeah. Scotland had two players from mighty Norwich City. Talk about underachieving!

What about the clubs players from Slovenia, Slovakia, Turkey, Albania and Georgia play for?

You're deluded if you think what was served up by us in this tournament was remotely good enough.

[immcinto]

2 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

What about the clubs players from Slovenia, Slovakia, Turkey, Albania and Georgia play for?

You're deluded if you think what was served up by us in this tournament was remotely good enough.

Turkey had a West Brom midfielder on the pitch last night. Wouldnae get near our 1st XI

[Chripper]

2 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

What about the clubs players from Slovenia, Slovakia, Turkey, Albania and Georgia play for?

You're deluded if you think what was served up by us in this tournament was remotely good enough.

Well, Turkey have players at Inter Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid and Borussia Dortmund.

[HopeStreetCadette]

1 minute ago, Chripper said:

Well, Turkey have players at Inter Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid and Borussia Dortmund.

This is all just echoes in a chamber, the fact of the matter is we have Premier League quality players in our squad that should be doing a lot better than what was displayed across the 3 games. I couldn’t give a toss what other countries have when I’ve seen our players go toe to toe with Spain just over a year ago and then cannot produce nearly the same performance a year later.

They have the ability to do so, they are just held back by a backwards thinking coach who doesn’t give them the freedom to play on the front foot.

[Chripper]

4 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said:

This is all just echoes in a chamber, the fact of the matter is we have Premier League quality players in our squad that should be doing a lot better than what was displayed across the 3 games. I couldn’t give a toss what other countries have when I’ve seen our players go toe to toe with Spain just over a year ago and then cannot produce nearly the same performance a year later.

They have the ability to do so, they are just held back by a backwards thinking coach who doesn’t give them the freedom to play on the front foot.

Really?

We have Robertson, Tierney, McTominay, Gilmour and McGinn.

Only 2 of those players are in the mix to win trophies.

Then we have Championship players/EPL players.

Our general standard of player is Championship/Bottom half of the EPL.

That won't win you many games at the top table.

Football is a simple game. The teams with the best players traditionally win.

SAF was in charge of a pretty decent Scotland team in 86. How did he do?

Edited July 7 by Chripper

[HopeStreetCadette]

1 minute ago, Chripper said:

Really?

We have Robertson, Tierney, McTominay, Gilmour and McGinn.

Only 2 of those players are in the mix to win trophies.

Then we have Championship players/EPL players.

Football is a simple game. The teams with the best players traditionally win.

SAF was in charge of a pretty decent Scotland team in 86. How did he do?

Still doesn’t explain how teams such as Albania, Slovenia, Georgia, etc, who arguably have worse quality than us, doing far better in the tournament overall. Oh wait, I know, they actually had a go and didn’t just concede defeat before a ball was even kicked.

[Chripper]

11 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said:

Still doesn’t explain how teams such as Albania, Slovenia, Georgia, etc, who arguably have worse quality than us, doing far better in the tournament overall. Oh wait, I know, they actually had a go and didn’t just concede defeat before a ball was even kicked.

We hit the post vs Switzerland, gave away a cheap goal then against Hungary we were denied a stonewall penalty.

These are variables that would have made things different.

Problem is people just want to look at the negative.

Think of where we were 10 years ago. Compare it to now.

I'll take now.

I get the distinct impression that these moaning, whining, whining moaners are just glory hunters who have no idea how low Scotland had sunk in the couple of decades before 2020.

I remember the dark days. And me, personally, I'm loving these days of qualifying again. It probably won't last.

Edited July 7 by Chripper

[DA Baracus]

Hungary hit the post against us.

By your (attempt at) logic that somehow should have actually been a goal?

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Managers depend to a larger degree on players. A player can play well even with rubbish around them. A manager can only do so much with the cards in his deck. Once a manger fails at a lower level then to an extent that becomes his level. Recently Steve Clarke said if he wasn't successful at Kilmarnock then he had accepted that he would have been done as a manager. Mark Hughes isn't considered for any Premier League job anymore, that kind of thing.

The really well-off guys doing it for fun? If you don't see it then maybe it's just not that much fun being a manager.

I see England played three 'clunky' centre backs yesterday. Saka and Trippier at wing-back. England fans would be raging if they'd lost in a similar way to Scotland fans after Hungary.

Did they though?

We played Hanley, McKenna and Hendry. All levels of poor on the ball, with only Hendry really able to bring the ball out of defence.

England played Stones, Walker and Konsa. 

We all know how good Stones is on the ball and often spends large parts of the game in midfield, Walker can play the Tierney style CB role and Konsa regularly plays at full back for Aston Villa. 

Apart from all that, they were still pish though. 

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Managers depend to a larger degree on players. A player can play well even with rubbish around them. A manager can only do so much with the cards in his deck. Once a manger fails at a lower level then to an extent that becomes his level. Recently Steve Clarke said if he wasn't successful at Kilmarnock then he had accepted that he would have been done as a manager. Mark Hughes isn't considered for any Premier League job anymore, that kind of thing.

The really well-off guys doing it for fun? If you don't see it then maybe it's just not that much fun being a manager.

I see England played three 'clunky' centre backs yesterday. Saka and Trippier at wing-back. England fans would be raging if they'd lost in a similar way to Scotland fans after Hungary.

Eh? I see you are comparing Scotland to England again... Players with a lot more technical ability than our lot plus Stones, Walker aren't clunky and you could argue it was more of a four at the back also considering they only had four defenders on the pitch. 

[Crawford Bridge]

Now that the general election has come and gone is this the most tedious thread on P&B? 

[2426255]

49 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Did they though? We played Hanley, McKenna and Hendry. All levels of poor on the ball, with only Hendry really able to bring the ball out of defence.

 

46 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Eh? I see you are comparing Scotland to England again... Players with a lot more technical ability than our lot plus Stones, Walker aren't clunky and you could argue it was more of a four at the back also considering they only had four defenders on the pitch. 

I was taking the Michael out of our resident 'tactician' @Butters Scotch. I believe we've reached a point where he has accepted that playing three at the back is acceptable as teams are fluid on the ball and can adapt formation depending on the situation in-game. The starting formation is essentially meaningless. So let's address the idea of three clunky centre-backs, Hendry, Hanley and McKenna:

My view is that it's again irrelevant because teams always leave a minimum rear party of at least three defenders to guard against counter-attacks when they're attacking. I believe it's called the 'rest defence'. Therefore why is having three 'clunker's in there a big deal? 

Quote

When a team attacks, they commit a number of players forward in an attempt to create and finish the attack. The other players on the team provide support around and underneath the ball. These secondary players can also help lock the opponents into the final third, working the ball to the other side of the pitch and, most importantly, stop opposing counter-attacks. When possession is lost, these deeper players focus on controlling the spaces.

Their actions, positioning, roles and responsibilities are a team’s ‘rest defence’. Typically, teams will attack with five players and have five outfield players responsible for rest defence (below). When a team is more assertive, or particularly desperate for a goal, this may move to six attacking and four in rest defence. A team reverses this when they prioritise the moments they lose possession.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/rest-defence-explained/

An interesting bit is that Tierney was part of our 'rest defence' when McTominay scored against Switzerland.

[BukyOHare]

1 hour ago, Chripper said:

then against Hungary we were denied a stonewall penalty.

You keep repeating this but in the cold light of day, we absolutely weren't.

 

[BukyOHare]

Hanley's header going in and then getting a point against Hungary to qualify would I fear ultimately have papered over the cracks of our clear failures on and off the pitch.

Lets say we got Switzerland's fixture route and got Italy next. The country would've got themselves into a frenzy pre match and then the team would've found a way not to turn up, shit the bed like the Germany game and then we'd all be debating about Clarke's failings. No doubt in my mind about it

[ekok]

1 hour ago, Chripper said:

 

I get the distinct impression that these moaning, whining, whining moaners are just glory hunters who have no idea how low Scotland had sunk in the couple of decades before 2020.

I remember the dark days. And me, personally, I'm loving these days of qualifying again. It probably won't last.

I genuinely believe you believe what you say, but beg to differ. 

Anyone who suggests any Scotland supporters are glory hunters is on the wrong planet . I take a wee bit of offence at that gibe.

I have had many highs and lows watching Scotland over about 60 years,  never, ever once have I been so disappointed with what was offered, or more so what was not offered.

That's the point, not splitting hairs about shape/ tactics etc. We were a disgrace, it hurt, it still hurts, will always hurt.