Euro 2024 Expectations

[Skyline Drifter]

32 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Quite remarkable or a stark example of the resources available to us.

Although, being an Aberdeen supporter, I still wake up with sweat on my brow, screaming and hallucinating of Jackie McNamara smirking at the mere thought of anything related to QoTS.

take the point but in fairness only one of those five (Dykes) was actually a contracted QoS player in our first team for a period. One is a QoS youth product (Hanley) who left us before he played for the first team (went to Crewe, then on to Blackburn). The other three (McCrorie, Clark and Johnston) were all loan players only, though Clark was here for more than a year and a half and Johnston for a full season so we can certainly take some development credit for both). Robby McCrorie was more short term (6 months).

[Bogbrush1903]

17 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

take the point but in fairness only one of those five (Dykes) was actually a contracted QoS player in our first team for a period. One is a QoS youth product (Hanley) who left us before he played for the first team (went to Crewe, then on to Blackburn). The other three (McCrorie, Clark and Johnston) were all loan players only, though Clark was here for more than a year and a half and Johnston for a full season so we can certainly take some development credit for both). Robby McCrorie was more short term (6 months).

Are we discussing those named in the 28 man squad? If so, then you have the wrong McCrorie and who is Johnston? 

[Skyline Drifter]

On 24/05/2024 at 07:58, Skyline Drifter said:

We have THREE ex QoS players in the squad. And another two were in the short list that didnt quite make it. Quite remarkable really.

 

1 minute ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Are we discussing those named in the 28 man squad? If so, then you have the wrong McCrorie and who is Johnston? 

No we're discussing the squad AND the short list from the initial SFA availability list who didn't actually get picked. Which is what the post you quoted says.

So correct McCrorie and it's Max Johnston who were both in the "long list" but didn't make selection for the 28.

[Bogbrush1903]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

No we're discussing the squad AND the short list from the initial SFA availability list who didn't actually get picked. Which is what the post you quoted says.

So correct McCrorie and it's Max Johnston who were both in the "long list" but didn't make selection for the 28.

I had no idea there was a list on top of the preliminary list which will be whittled down to a final list.

I'm sure it used to be far simpler back in the days when we qualified for World Cups. A 24 man squad and five or so back ups.

It would be interesting to know who was on the back up list for 1974 to 1990 World Cups, and 1998...

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

I see Steve Clarke has said that to reach Round 2 would be the first aim as it's something we've never done previously, which is a sllght massaging of the facts because whilst it's true that we've never qaulified beyond the first round proper in the World Cup or the Euros, we did reach the final 8 in Europe in 1992.

Round 2 would see us match our Euro 1996 performance of last 16.

Personally, I don't think the last 8 is realistic this time around, the last 16 feasible I suppose but we haven't resolved the issues we have at the heart of our defence, and the strike force in the squad must be one of the weakest in the tournament at this level.

Add to the equation that we face the Germans in the first match which might also affect morale if they land a sore one on us.

Consequently, alas, I fear another Round 1 exit.

I'm going to bore everyone again by pointing out that it isn't the final placing that's the issue, but the fact that we've never progressed once the tournament proper has begun.

Getting to the final 8/16/24 over a series of games spread over 1-2 years was something we were quite good at, and deserved credit for, but we've never managed to do it over a week with the big spotlight on us. It seems indicative of stagefright...or perhaps we've just never been as good as we thought we were.

[2426255]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

but we've never managed to do it over a week with the big spotlight on us. 

Agree with this.

Clarke and Porteous summed it up quite well saying roughly 10 days, 3 games, 4 points against teams that are at least no worse than us.

That's a level above what we've ever shown afaik, so it'll be a great achievement if we do it.

[Bogbrush1903]

42 minutes ago, BFTD said:

I'm going to bore everyone again by pointing out that it isn't the final placing that's the issue, but the fact that we've never progressed once the tournament proper has begun.

Getting to the final 8/16/24 over a series of games spread over 1-2 years was something we were quite good at, and deserved credit for, but we've never managed to do it over a week with the big spotlight on us. It seems indicative of stagefright...or perhaps we've just never been as good as we thought we were.

True, however, would you agree that Germany, Netherlands and the CIS in 92 or Netherlands, English and Swiss with only two qualifying from four provided a far more substantial hurdle than a possible three qualifying from four from 2021's group Czech Republic, England and Croatia (with two matches at Hampden) or this forthcoming group in Gemrany 2024.

I think we're giving this group of players more historical baggage by suggesting that this insurmountable hurdle is similar as it has been in the past*.

As an Aberdeen supporter, I listened in horror as Barry Robson would continually tell the press that the players were tired afrer European games, which I think had a psychological affect on the squad domestically.

I would just like us to go out to Germany with confidence that we're good enough to qualify comfortably from this group and instill some belief in the squad. 

*Apart from 1990, as we should've really progressed from that group although I sometimes wonder whether we would've beaten Sweden had we taken care of the Costa Ricans in the first game.

**I would also add that we only ever qualified once for a European Championships containing only eight teams so it was a significant achievement for the Scotland team and one that I don't belief we've bettered before or since. Some might suggest West Germany 1974 but I believe we didn't realise our potential in that tournament and it was within our ability to reach the Top 4.

Edited May 27 by Bogbrush1903

[BFTD]

7 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

True, however, would you agree that Germany, Netherlands and the CIS in 92 or Netherlands, English and Swiss with only two qualifying from four provided a far more substantial hurdle than a possible three qualifying from four from 2021's group Czech Republic, England and Croatia (with two matches at Hampden) or this forthcoming group in Gemrany 2024.

I think we're giving this group of players more historical baggage by suggesting that this insurmountable hurdle is similar as it has been in the past*.

As an Aberdeen supporter, I listened in horror as Barry Robson would continually tell the press that the players were tired afrer European games, which I think had a psychological affect on the squad domestically.

I would just like us to go out to Germany with confidence that we're good enough to qualify comfortably from this group and instill some belief in the squad. 

*Apart from 1990, as we should've really progressed from that group although I sometimes wonder whether we would've beaten Sweden had we taken care of the Costa Ricans in the first game.

**I would also add that we only ever qualified once for a European Championships containing only eight teams so it was a significant achievement for the Scotland team and one that I don't belief we've bettered before or since. Some might suggest West Germany 1974 but I believe we didn't realise our potential in that tournament and it was within our ability to reach the Top 4.

Oh, absolutely, and you can't fault them for their performance in 1992. It's likely the national team's biggest achievement, especially as the CIS would've qualified by beating us.

However, you look at all the tournaments that Scotland have been to and think, "really, we've never got out of the group stage once, even by accident?"  It starts to look like a mental block, similar to England and penalties. There are probably other countries who have similar limits, like apparently the Mexicans have a thing about never getting past the World Cup quarter-finals (cry me a fucking river).

[Old Bing]

28 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Oh, absolutely, and you can't fault them for their performance in 1992. It's likely the national team's biggest achievement, especially as the CIS would've qualified by beating us.

However, you look at all the tournaments that Scotland have been to and think, "really, we've never got out of the group stage once, even by accident?"  It starts to look like a mental block, similar to England and penalties. There are probably other countries who have similar limits, like apparently the Mexicans have a thing about never getting past the World Cup quarter-finals (cry me a fucking river).

Were a different team playing against different teams than any previous tournament. The past holds no credible bearing on it.

Cmon, were gonna win this thing!

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Were a different team playing against different teams than any previous tournament. The past holds no credible bearing on it.

Cmon, were gonna win this thing!

Obviously we're still winning it, but this odd record will make it all the more impressive.

[Bogbrush1903]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

Oh, absolutely, and you can't fault them for their performance in 1992. It's likely the national team's biggest achievement, especially as the CIS would've qualified by beating us.

However, you look at all the tournaments that Scotland have been to and think, "really, we've never got out of the group stage once, even by accident?"  It starts to look like a mental block, similar to England and penalties. There are probably other countries who have similar limits, like apparently the Mexicans have a thing about never getting past the World Cup quarter-finals (cry me a fucking river).

The Bulgarians hadn't won a match at a World Cup Finals until they beat Greece in their second game at USA 94 World Cup (they had been pumped 3-0 by the Nigerians in their opening game).

They then went all the way to the semi-finals.

You're correct, we just need to reach the second round this time and get that monkey off our back.

Edited May 27 by Bogbrush1903

[A Diamond For Me]

I think this kind of thing is more an issue for the fans and media than for the players.  I'm sure they'd see it as a good achievement, but the historical dimension doesn't really seem to be something players care about as much.  Beating France in Paris was a big deal because the French had an excellent team and the players managed to overcome them, not because we hadn't done it for decades prior.  I really don't think players think about hoodoos and curses and historical records.

[BFTD]

48 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

The Bulgarians hadn't won a match at a World Cup Finals until they beat Greece in their second game at USA 94 World Cup (they had been pumped 3-0 by the Nigerians in their opening game).

They then went all the way to the semi-finals.

You're correct, we just need to reach the second round this time and get that monkey off our back.

South Korea are another nation that spring to mind - I think they shared the record with Bulgaria for most number of World Cup games played without a win. Then not only did they get their win, they finished fourth in 2002 (admittedly in their own back yard).

Not that I'm trying to say that countries always break their duck and go on to great things; it would just be a relief not to have everyone giving it the "we never get past the groups" doom chat at the start of future tournaments!

[Molotov]

On 23/05/2024 at 17:10, Skyline Drifter said:

Quite right mate, very clear 'Celtic minded' bias in there

Members of the Scottish Squad to have played for Celtic at some point (11):
Craig Gordon
Jack Hendry
Anthony Ralston
Andy Robertson
*Greg Taylor
Kieran Tierney
Stuart Armstrong
Ryan Christie
Callum McGregor
Ben Doak
James Forrest

Members of the Scottish Squad to have played for Rangers at some point (8):
Liam Kelly
Grant Hanley
Ross McCrorie
John Souttar
*Greg Taylor
Billy Gilmour
Ryan Jack
Kenny McLean

Members of the Scotland Squad to have played for neither at any point (10):
Zander Clark
Angus Gunn
Liam Cooper
Scott McKenna
Ryan Porteous
John McGinn
Scott McTominay
Che Adams
Lyndon Dykes
Lawrence Shankland

Don’t think you can include Kenny McLean under the Rangers umbrella as I don’t believe he ever made a senior appearance for Rangers.
He left the Oldco youth academy in 2008 to join St Mirren’s youth academy. Lewis Morgan took a similar route.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Molotov said:

Don’t think you can include Kenny McLean under the Rangers umbrella as I don’t believe he ever made a senior appearance for Rangers.
He left the Oldco youth academy in 2008 to join St Mirren’s youth academy. Lewis Morgan took a similar route.

I'm aware of that. Greg Taylor and Grant Hanley didn't make a senior appearance for them either. Nir did Andy Robertson make a senior one for Celtic.

The list absolutely includes youth careers and was intended to. The accusation was there was an obvious Celtic sided bias to the squad which pretty clearly isn't the case when you look deeper, though there are marginally more players with a Celtic connection than a Rangers one in it.

Edited May 27 by Skyline Drifter

[A Diamond For Me]

46 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I'm aware of that. Greg Taylor didn't make a senior appearance for them either. Andy Robertson didn't make a senior one for Celtic either.

The list absolutely includes youth careers and was intended to. The accusation was there was an obvious Celtic sided bias to the squad which pretty clearly isn't the case when you look deeper, though there are marginally more players with a Celtic connection than a Rangers one in it.

 

Which given that Celtic have just been better than Rangers on any metric for the last decade plus is not really surprising.  There are more also more players with Rangers connections than those with Dumbarton connections, for the same reason.

 

Edit: I do them an injustice, Rangers have been better than Celtic in the Europa League, though that may be something of a cold comfort for Rangers fans, all things considered.

Edited May 27 by A Diamond For Me

[Bogbrush1903]

2 hours ago, A Diamond For Me said:

I think this kind of thing is more an issue for the fans and media than for the players.  I'm sure they'd see it as a good achievement, but the historical dimension doesn't really seem to be something players care about as much.  Beating France in Paris was a big deal because the French had an excellent team and the players managed to overcome them, not because we hadn't done it for decades prior.  I really don't think players think about hoodoos and curses and historical records.

I don't think you can underestimate the psychological side of sport.

I agree that the players won't be leafing through the archives to see what has happened in the past; however, the media can plant seeds of past failures and glories to come if they can overcome the hoodoo.

I don't feel anything different about our preparations or squad for this tournament from previous ones that makes me think we're away to see a different outcome than we've seen before.

We'll get one brave performance (defeat against Germany), one stirring performance resulting in a victory or draw and one collapse.

In the above examples, Bulgaria had a world class player in Stoichkov that gave them belief, whilst South Korea had the will of the home crowd, and more importantly, the will of the officials.

We just have what we always have, a few good players, some good pros but ultimately all with the collective Scottish inferiority complex that will hinder our progress.

Edited May 27 by Bogbrush1903

[Skyline Drifter]

18 minutes ago, A Diamond For Me said:

 

Which given that Celtic have just been better than Rangers on any metric for the last decade plus is not really surprising.  There are more also more players with Rangers connections than those with Dumbarton connections, for the same reason.

Take the point and accept it entirely. I dont think these things are necessarily directly related though. Much also depends on whether they tend to 'buy Scottish' or not and the states of their respective youth academies in the last 15 years or so. 

Without having actually collated any stats on it my feeling is Celtic are more likely to buy domestic players excelling against them a la Armstrong, Christie, Taylor, Hendry (though he was also a youth product) than Rangers do. Souttar and Jack are the only two Rangers related they bought in.

[2426255]

A bit from Steve Clarke via STV.

Quote

At the last tournament we maybe expected too much and didn’t get what we wanted.

We are going into this one with pretty much the same core squad so I’m excited to see how much we have improved. Hopefully we can go to Germany and show everybody that we have improved. Most of the boys have experience of tournament football and will know more about what to expect going into this one, so hopefully we can see the fruits of our work over the last three years since Euro 2020.

This squad have been fantastic for me and fantastic for their country and now they have a chance to create a bit of history, so let’s see if we can do that. We will need top level performances against good teams, we are going to have to play to our maximum in the three group games. I believe if we play to our maximum and we get the right amount of football luck, that you need sometimes, I believe we can do it, so that is something for us to aim for.

Steve Clarke

https://news.stv.tv/sport/clarke-scotland-aiming-to-make-history-by-reaching-knockout-stages-at-euro-2024

[buchan30]

On 23/05/2024 at 16:29, microdave said:

I had a thought this morning that because we're in the first group to finish, we could have an agonising wait to see if we qualify should we finish in 3rd spot in the group. After clinching qualification while not playing, I'd rather we do it on the park and give the fans/players the chance to celebrate together.

That is a fear actually, that we think have made it through, only to be pipped to the post by a last minute flukey goal by Georgia.