Scotland starting XI the future.

[Butters Scotch]

14 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

This sort of reactionary change for change sake nonsense needs put in the bin. There's not an obvious way of vastly improving our best 11. With Hickey, Dykes and Tierney back in and McGinn / McGregor in better form we're not in all that bad shape. One of the few positives from the Euros was the return of Grant Hanley. He's not quite where he was yet but he's closer and has a year or two in him yet. The idea that Porteous and McKenna should be ahead of Hanley and Hendry as somone posted earlier is laughable.

We could do with upgrades particularly up front and at centre back and keeper but we have to work with what we have.

Gunn's a competent keeper but he's not the level of peak Gordon, McGregor, Marshall, nor Goram or Leighton. He's the best we have though.

Robertson's playing higher level football than anyone in our squad. He's still a top player. So is Tierney despite his perennial fitness issues. When they are both fit we need to stick with the formation that gets the best from them. Clearly Hickey starts on the other side. But Patterson and Johnston will be options in future, particularly if Hickey switched sides once Robertson is gone.

Hanley probably has another tournament in him and Hendry has done well. McKenna and Porteous are decent cover. I imagine we won't see Cooper again. Souttar? Maybe.

Gilmour, McGregor, McTominay, McGinn, Ferguson and Christie is an excellent midfield group. Lots of options in there. I guess we'll ease the likes of Jack and McLean out over the next year.

I assume Doak will become a regular shortly but we dont use wingers much. Morgan showed fleetingly against Hungary but I doubt he'll be a regular.  Doubt we'll see Forrest again.

Dykes was badly missed at the Euros. He's the best we have at that role. That some still think Adams or Shankland better is bizarre to me. But he's limited and unlikely to score freely. 

What else do we do? The idea Gault is some sort of saviour is likely fanciful. We'd all happily take Harvey Barnes if he'd come. Elliot Anderson too maybe especially if he could play striker but cant see him returning under the current regime.

I agree with a lot of what you say but think there has to be some reinforcements into the first 11, it needs a complete refresh now. 

Having to fit both Robo and Tierney in is becoming an issue in itself as we are now not creating enough as teams have sussed us out as well as being leaky at the back still. By playing one of them you are leaving out someone like a Ferguson, Conway, Christie, Doak, Morgan, etc. I'm not sure if there is an upside to fitting them both in now apart from the odd game where we might need to be more defensive or to try something different to change a game. 

 

[Skyline Drifter]

13 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but think there has to be some reinforcements into the first 11, it needs a complete refresh now. 

Having to fit both Robo and Tierney in is becoming an issue in itself as we are now not creating enough as teams have sussed us out as well as being leaky at the back still. By playing one of them you are leaving out someone like a Ferguson, Conway, Christie, Doak, Morgan, etc. I'm not sure if there is an upside to fitting them both in now apart from the odd game where we might need to be more defensive or to try something different to change a game.

Yeah, it's not an easy call. I do wonder if there's merit in going to a four when one of them is missing, as Tierney at least regularly is of course. I'd like to see Adams work off Dykes as it looked occasionally promising when Adams first came into the setup.  I think Ferguson and Doak in particular will see more involvement moving forward. I just don't think we need mass surgery. It's more on the fringes of the squad rather than the starting eleven. Some of the senior players need eased out, some fresh blood in and in time they'll challenge for starting roles in the way that the likes of Ferguson at least is now.

I doubt we see Cooper, Jack and Forrest (or Gordon) in a Scotland shirt again. Possibly not Kelly if he takes himself onto Rangers bench also.  I'd think the likes of McLean and Armstrong will become more marginalised. They are both already behind Ferguson, they'll likely shortly be behind Doak. I suspect Morgan will disappear as quickly as he reappeared but he may not. Conway will likely take a year or so to break into the squad regularly. It will be interesting to see where he stands when the likes of Brown are back and Nisbet maybe runs into form.

Give it a couple of years but McGregor will start to drift out too. He may be the one whose place goes to Ferguson first (McGinn or McTominay can play deeper).

So yes, it needs a little refreshing. I don't think it needs major surgery though, nor do I think there are better level players out there in any significance.

[Kadouken_]

People saying we don’t need any major changes and just go again clearly haven’t watched us lately. 
 

We had the second oldest squad at the Euros. Were by far the worst team at the competition, again. And I would put money on us having used the least amount of players at the tournament.

 

Grant Hanley getting described as a positive 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, it's not an easy call. I do wonder if there's merit in going to a four when one of them is missing, as Tierney at least regularly is of course. I'd like to see Adams work off Dykes as it looked occasionally promising when Adams first came into the setup.  I think Ferguson and Doak in particular will see more involvement moving forward. I just don't think we need mass surgery. It's more on the fringes of the squad rather than the starting eleven. Some of the senior players need eased out, some fresh blood in and in time they'll challenge for starting roles in the way that the likes of Ferguson at least is now.

I doubt we see Cooper, Jack and Forrest (or Gordon) in a Scotland shirt again. Possibly not Kelly if he takes himself onto Rangers bench also.  I'd think the likes of McLean and Armstrong will become more marginalised. They are both already behind Ferguson, they'll likely shortly be behind Doak. I suspect Morgan will disappear as quickly as he reappeared but he may not. Conway will likely take a year or so to break into the squad regularly. It will be interesting to see where he stands when the likes of Brown are back and Nisbet maybe runs into form.

Give it a couple of years but McGregor will start to drift out too. He may be the one whose place goes to Ferguson first (McGinn or McTominay can play deeper).

So yes, it needs a little refreshing. I don't think it needs major surgery though, nor do I think there are better level players out there in any significance.

A little refreshing is what it will be. Why do fans always go to extremes? A complete refresh? with who? we don't have the players to do a complete refresh even if we wanted to. If you aren't a fan of Tony Ralston then I doubt Chris Cadden is going to float your boat.

I remember seeing Rangers fans blabbering away about only keeping on 5 or 6 players into next season and doing a 'full rebuild' and I thought good luck with that.

Edited June 26 by 2426255

[No_Problemo]

30 minutes ago, Kadouken_ said:

People saying we don’t need any major changes and just go again clearly haven’t watched us lately. 
 

We had the second oldest squad at the Euros. Were by far the worst team at the competition, again. And I would put money on us having used the least amount of players at the tournament.

 

Grant Hanley getting described as a positive 

It depends how you define major changes. 

We still have a good spine in Robertson, Tierney, Hickey, Gilmour, McTominay and McGinn. 

Gunn and two passable centre halves added to that. 

 

You then add in the likes of Ferguson and then need to add some genuine pace to the side and we are starting to get there - I don’t think there are major changes required. 

[Butters Scotch]

36 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

A little refreshing is what it will be. Why do fans always go to extremes? A complete refresh? with who? we don't have the players to do a complete refresh even if we wanted to. If you aren't a fan of Tony Ralston then I doubt Chris Cadden is going to float your boat.

I remember seeing Rangers fans blabbering away about only keeping on 5 or 6 players into next season and doing a 'full rebuild' and I thought good luck with that.

Aye the tactics, style of play, formation, whatever way you want to describe it needs a complete refresh now. Some of the players need to be replenished particularly in the forward areas in the forseeable future ie putting the likes of Doak in, giving Comway a run of games and then either McGregor or a CB should come out for Ferguson once he's returned from injury.

Oh and I don't expect you to agree in any way to the above. 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Kadouken_ said:

People saying we don’t need any major changes and just go again clearly haven’t watched us lately. 
 

We had the second oldest squad at the Euros. Were by far the worst team at the competition, again. And I would put money on us having used the least amount of players at the tournament.

 

Grant Hanley getting described as a positive 

Could you over-react any more?

I've seen every game in many years. 

We had the 2nd oldest squad mainly because we took people like Liam Cooper, Ryan Jack, Greg Taylor and James Forrest to gather splinters rather than kids whilst the likes of Hickey, Patterson and Doak who would have brought it down sat at home injured. Did we have the 2nd oldest average starting eleven? Doubt it but genuinely not sure. Our team isnt old. There's only Robertson and McGregor from the starting eleven who had turned 30, and Robertson's only 30 and McGregor turned 31 during the tournament. These are not old for modern footballers. Hanley is 32 but didnt actually start the opening game. The notion that our team is too old is nonsense.

[itzdrk]

It's killer than we don't develop wingers or strikers.  Makes it so hard to actually progress.  

[2426255]

55 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Aye the tactics, style of play, formation, whatever way you want to describe it needs a complete refresh now. Some of the players need to be replenished particularly in the forward areas in the forseeable future ie putting the likes of Doak in, giving Comway a run of games and then either McGregor or a CB should come out for Ferguson once he's returned from injury.

Oh and I don't expect you to agree in any way to the above. 

All I want really is for Scotland to keep moving forward with the plans in place to try and get better against Pot-1 teams.

I'm not demanding miracles in the Nations League given it kicks off in September. A reasonable start (it doesn't have to be perfect) to the Nations League and World Cup qualifying is fine. The main thing I'd like to see is an improvement with the ball, we aren't good at playing with the ball irrespective of personnel. That was the biggest disappointment from the tournament for me. If we can marry up those two objectives I'll be happy.

Anything beyond that is icing on the cake. I leave the rest in terms of how that's done to Clarke and the players. If that can't be achieved then I'll be open to reassessing wider things like the the manager's performance and all of that.

[Gordon EF]

I don't think I've seen anyone seriously call for major changes like gutting the current squad and promoting a bunch of guys who're on the fringes and u-21. Of course it's going to be tweaks in personel and approach, at most.

This idea that we're all calling for Jack Harper, Lennon Miller, and Ryan Gauld is a total strawman. 

[Old Bing]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

I don't think I've seen anyone seriously call for major changes like gutting the current squad and promoting a bunch of guys who're on the fringes and u-21. Of course it's going to be tweaks in personel and approach, at most.

This idea that we're all calling for Jack Harper, Lennon Miller, and Ryan Gauld is a total strawman. 

Nobody has, it's the usual take an opinion and exaggerate it to extremes tactic.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

6 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but think there has to be some reinforcements into the first 11, it needs a complete refresh now. 

 

Having to fit both Robo and Tierney in is becoming an issue in itself as we are now not creating enough as teams have sussed us out as well as being leaky at the back still. By playing one of them you are leaving out someone like a Ferguson, Conway, Christie, Doak, Morgan, etc. I'm not sure if there is an upside to fitting them both in now apart from the odd game where we might need to be more defensive or to try something different to change a game. 

 

There is an upside if Tierney and Robertson are both fit , and we have Hickey ( maybe Patterson ) on the right

[Kadouken_]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Could you over-react any more?

I've seen every game in many years. 

We had the 2nd oldest squad mainly because we took people like Liam Cooper, Ryan Jack, Greg Taylor and James Forrest to gather splinters rather than kids whilst the likes of Hickey, Patterson and Doak who would have brought it down sat at home injured. Did we have the 2nd oldest average starting eleven? Doubt it but genuinely not sure. Our team isnt old. There's only Robertson and McGregor from the starting eleven who had turned 30, and Robertson's only 30 and McGregor turned 31 during the tournament. These are not old for modern footballers. Hanley is 32 but didnt actually start the opening game. The notion that our team is too old is nonsense.

What is an over-reaction?
 

If you know you’re not going to play a certain number of players but have to take so many then why not take some younger ones for experience who should be starting to become part of the squad over the next couple of years.
 

Taking a load of players Clarke likes but won’t ever play isn’t a good defence of Clarke and further shows some of the overall problems with Scottish football that are rife throughout all levels of the game. 
 

If you’re happy to go again with this squad then I don’t even know what to say. 

[HopeStreetCadette]

74th ranked in the world Georgia are about to qualify for the knockouts in their first ever major tournament by playing attacking football and actually having a go, despite being limited in a number of positions.

If that isn’t a wake up call then we are seriously lacking any ambition.

[Gordon EF]

14 minutes ago, Kadouken_ said:

What is an over-reaction?
 

If you know you’re not going to play a certain number of players but have to take so many then why not take some younger ones for experience who should be starting to become part of the squad over the next couple of years.
 

Taking a load of players Clarke likes but won’t ever play isn’t a good defence of Clarke and further shows some of the overall problems with Scottish football that are rife throughout all levels of the game. 
 

If you’re happy to go again with this squad then I don’t even know what to say. 

The noises coming from Clarke before the tournament were that 'character' would factor into his decisions on the squad. So guys like Cooper, Armstrong, Jack, McLean are presumably there for that kind of reason.

Considering this tournament has been a collosal failure of a character test, I suspect they're largley there because they're popular guys in the squad.

I really don't mind Clarke largely sticking with the group that got us there. And I'm not totally against the idea of Clarke staying in charge for the world cup campaign. But the big test is can he make the changes required to turn us from a team that's stopped being an embarrasment to a team that can actually go on and take a next step.

[RandomGuy.]

27 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said:

74th ranked in the world Georgia are about to qualify for the knockouts in their first ever major tournament by playing attacking football and actually having a go, despite being limited in a number of positions.

If that isn’t a wake up call then we are seriously lacking any ambition.

They have one of the best wingers on the planet playing for them.

Our issue, as said above, is our "talent" isn't used up on match winners.

There's not a single attacking player, up front or midfield, who's capable of winning matches alone at the top level. Georgia have that, and it's easier to build around.

[Skyline Drifter]

24 minutes ago, Kadouken_ said:

What is an over-reaction?
 

If you know you’re not going to play a certain number of players but have to take so many then why not take some younger ones for experience who should be starting to become part of the squad over the next couple of years.
 

Taking a load of players Clarke likes but won’t ever play isn’t a good defence of Clarke and further shows some of the overall problems with Scottish football that are rife throughout all levels of the game. 
 

If you’re happy to go again with this squad then I don’t even know what to say. 

Over-reaction is nicely defined by your previous post to be honest.

I pointedly said it was the end of the road for some of this squad. I'm happy enough to go again with the guys who started games though with some minor tweaks. 

Focusing on the age of the squad when in fact its clearly not old is just daft and ultimately the age of the unused subs matters not a jot. If you genuinely think our team is too old when the oldest regular is 32 if you count Hanley, 31 if you don't, and only 2/3 players are even 30 then there's no point trying to engage you with reason.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

They have one of the best wingers on the planet playing for them.

Our issue, as said above, is our "talent" isn't used up on match winners.

There's not a single attacking player, up front or midfield, who's capable of winning matches alone at the top level. Georgia have that, and it's easier to build around.

They've also had the benefit of playing the seeded team last when they'd already won the group and were largely just trying to get Ronaldo his goal. They've done well across 3 games though to be fair.

[Butters Scotch]

55 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

There is an upside if Tierney and Robertson are both fit , and we have Hickey ( maybe Patterson ) on the right

It definitely has its place but we have become over relient on this one tactic to a point where it's just predictable now, teams are getting better defending against it so Clarke needs to do some tweaking imo

[Kadouken_]

10 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Over-reaction is nicely defined by your previous post to be honest.

I pointedly said it was the end of the road for some of this squad. I'm happy enough to go again with the guys who started games though with some minor tweaks. 

Focusing on the age of the squad when in fact its clearly not old is just daft and ultimately the age of the unused subs matters not a jot. If you genuinely think our team is too old when the oldest regular is 32 if you count Hanley, 31 if you don't, and only 2/3 players are even 30 then there's no point trying to engage you with reason.

So you can’t even point out what was an over-reaction? Maybe because it was true. It’s pretty simple to point out what was an over-reaction and explain why…

 

We literally have the second oldest squad at the tournament. It’s an old squad. It’s really not hard to understand. Saying some of the older players don’t start or weren’t even took to play any minutes isn’t an a good defence for it either by the way. 
 

.