What is the point of labour ?

[SANTAN]

16 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Amazed to find out that two things can be true at the same time

 

Yeah, nuance is really exciting like that. 

[Fullerene]

Every book I have ever read about communist countries has a recurring theme - suspicion and paranoia.
Whatever utopia they are trying to achieve is constantly sabotaged by dark forces working against them.
Not just capitalist countries but enemies within.  Trust nobody.

When people in the Labour Party talk the same way, it makes them sound like communists too.

I am well aware that MSM hates the Labour Party.  They are not hiding in the darkness, they are out in the open and it is a disgrace how much influence they have.
Similarly there were opponents in the same party as Corbyn because FPTP forces them to be.
So yes, there were people who opposed Corbyn but that was known from the start.  It does not mean everyone was against him.  

The Labour Manifesto of 2017 seemed reasonable enough.  If a different leader had offered up the exact same thing, it might have done better.

The main objection to Corbyn was not that the party was too left wing.  It was the clumsiness, dithering and amateurism that caused the problem.
Too many people thought Corbyn was too incompetent to be leader.
In fairness, Johnson is equally incompetent but he is a snake oil merchant and simply better at fooling people.

[NotThePars]

Damn I can’t imagine why Lenin and Castro felt besieged much in the same way that I can’t imagine why Labour leftists felt they had an uphill battle when paratroopers were shooting pictures of Corbyn, civil servants were briefing the press that they would work against a Corbyn government, journos were repeatedly being fed anti-Corbyn lines from inside the party when they weren’t just making up stories and incidents on a regular basis alongside manufacturing a racism crisis that was somehow unique to one specific faction in one party.

[John Lambies Doos]

So we can have two posters talking about their long time commitment to/membership of the Labour Party (even over 20 years), and its 'perfectly reasonable' to change their minds/leave (in addition to being 'truthful'....but not the SNP...why is that?
Indeed, I have been reading folk on Twitter talking about leaving Labour after 40, and sometimes 50 years of membership,with no questioning of their 'truthfulness'.......any criticism of the SNP is 'trolling', but other parties...fair game.
I have also said on a few occasions that given a binary choice of Independence or status quo that I would (again) vote Yes, while expecting the first years of Indy to be a bumpy ride...but would still prefer that Devo Max offer.

What exactly is the Devo Max offer?

[Guest Jedi]

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...

In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.

By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.

Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.

The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...

1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster

2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader

3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum

4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.

You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...

In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.

By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.

Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.

The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...

1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster

2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader

3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum

4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.

You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

I’d like to see SLab going in the bin.  The good news is they’re on their way.

[NotThePars]

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...
In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.
By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.
Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.
The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...
1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster
2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader
3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum
4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.
You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

No I’m saying it’s brain worms to think that Starmer and the wing of the party that’s currently holding sway has any of the mettle or desire to make the changes you want it to make at the national level. I’m interested to know if you are a member because it’s very much “LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS” internally right now. The devolution stuff that say your Paul Sweeneys have put some thought into is not what’s gaining traction atm, it’s Ian Murray, Anas Sarwar and co who are directing traffic for the party up here and the dominant point is still “no referendum til 2026”. I’m curious to know who you think specifically is going to advocate for these things you want and how they’re going to direct the leadership of the party to follow suit.

Also, who do you think should replace Richard Leonard and who do you think is likely to replace Leonard? I don’t think he’s remotely capable of being the leader of a resurgent party but the problem for Scottish Labour is that they have nobody who’s capable of doing that. Even the members or politicians in the party who are vaguely good have no interest in being leader and I don’t think they’re qualified enough to take on that shit show.

[Wee-Bey]

.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Henderson to deliver .....

[Wee-Bey]

Just now, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 

Neck and neck is actually good at this stage.

[Guest Jedi]

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[John Lambies Doos]

@Granny Danger. [mention=50845]Jedi[/mention] is calling you a liar

[Guest Jedi]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

@Granny Danger. [mention=50845]Jedi[/mention] is calling you a liar
 

Except of course that I'm not...   rather pointing out the inconsistencies (from some).....Granny D-long time Lab member, changed his mind (believe, as I also do)....me-long time SNP member-changed mind about the party....lies.Interesting that was the one point you picked up from my last post JLD.

On the question of who I would like to replace Leonard @NotThePars, at the moment, probably Monica Lennon, as I think she has done reasonably well as an MSP. I don't disagree with your point about the current direction of travel with Sarwar, Murray etc opposing a 2nd Ref.

That clearly has to change. As said I think the LP in Scotland have a lot of work to do, to say the least. To continue to oppose a 2nd Ref in the face of an SNP majority, is, I believe, a mistake. It would be undemocratic to try and block it in those circumstances. 

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

[Pocketman]

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Except of course that I'm not...   rather pointing out the inconsistencies (from some).....Granny D-long time Lab member, changed his mind (believe, as I also do)....me-long time SNP member-changed mind about the party....lies.Interesting that was the one point you picked up from my last post JLD.

On the question of who I would like to replace Leonard @NotThePars, at the moment, probably Monica Lennon, as I think she has done reasonably well as an MSP. I don't disagree with your point about the current direction of travel with Sarwar, Murray etc opposing a 2nd Ref.

That clearly has to change. As said I think the LP in Scotland have a lot of work to do, to say the least. To continue to oppose a 2nd Ref in the face of an SNP majority, is, I believe, a mistake. It would be undemocratic to try and block it in those circumstances. 

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

being an SNP member rather than voter means that you fundamentally agreed with independence.

Many people can understand someone not fully agreeing with the way the SNP are evolving and that person no longer being an SNP member for those reasons - but that person still believes in independence. Its difficult to believe any recent SMP member who  believed in independence now considering over the last few years that Labour actually best represents Scotland's interests and those interests are best achieved (according to SLAB and Westminster Lab) by remaining in the UK. That is utter tosh I am afraid. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by KingRocketman II

[SANTAN]

52 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Excellent post and you're broadly right about this place. There are a handful of decent posters but there are plenty more useful idiots that escape criticism because they are pro Indy.

I'm not pro Indy but I've enjoyed all your posts and appreciate you posting the rationale behind your judgements which I was sadly unsurprised to see not taken at face value or given the benefit of the doubt. 

The forum could use some balance so stick around, enjoy your festive period too!

[NotThePars]

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

I admire your (imo delusional) belief in this but as someone who was a member I can’t look past the SEC initially acting above members to say no to another indyref, significant party figures putting arbitrary dates on even considering one, and then the members voting pretty conclusively for Jackie Baillie to be Deputy Leader over Matt Kerr. It’s a party that doesn’t want to change at the top and a party that doesn’t know how to change at the bottom.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Firstly, same to you.

Secondly, at no point did I call you a liar neither did I imply this.  No idea where this liar talk has come from tbh.

From my birth in 1955 until now the majority of people of Scotland have voted Tory once but seen subject to Tory rule for the vast majority of these years.  The only way to avoid that is independence.

Even under Labour we have had a right-wing war mongering PM.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I admire your (imo delusional) belief in this but as someone who was a member I can’t look past the SEC initially acting above members to say no to another indyref, significant party figures putting arbitrary dates on even considering one, and then the members voting pretty conclusively for Jackie Baillie to be Deputy Leader over Matt Kerr. It’s a party that doesn’t want to change at the top and a party that doesn’t know how to change at the bottom.

This.

They have not shifted in the 26 years I've left - of anything even more staunch.

[Guest Jedi]

Cheers @Granny Danger...the 'liar' part came from another couple of posters who said 'SNP member my erse', and also 'there is no way you voted Yes in 2014', in addition to 'you are trolling by trying to gain sympathy for your views by falsely claiming to have been an SNP member'....and enjoy the game tonight, but mon the Killie 

@NotThePars Absolutely. They have to change course at some point...following another (looks like heavy) defeat in May, surely there has to be a rethink. To survive in any shape or form the LP would have to, in parliament say, fine there is a clear mandate for Indy Ref 2...get on with it. They don't have to support Independence, but not block the Ref. I am not a fan of Jackie Baillie either. Incidentally, you obviously moved from a position as a LP member to supporting the SNP/Independence....was it just the mess the party was in which changed your mind?

@KingRocketman II    As I have said about a zillion times, in a choice between Indy and status quo-I support Indy and will vote Yes, so don't see the 'tosh' in being critical of the SNP, leaving the party, but given that choice, after so long, still backing Yes, in those circumstances. Following the hit to the economy of both Covid and Brexit which will take some time for both Scotland and England to recover from, to me, it would be a safer option at this stage though, to have proper devolution, to enable Scotland to make its own economic decisions, until such times as the economy can stabalise again-could be 10 years, who knows. 

@Stormzy

Cheers, and many thanks for your kind words...have a good one.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[NotThePars]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

@NotThePars Absolutely. They have to change course at some point...following another (looks like heavy) defeat in May, surely there has to be a rethink. To survive in any shape or form the LP would have to, in parliament say, fine there is a clear mandate for Indy Ref 2...get on with it. They don't have to support Independence, but not block the Ref. I am not a fan of Jackie Baillie either. Incidentally, you obviously moved from a position as a LP member to supporting the SNP/Independence....was it just the mess the party was in which changed your mind?

I'm fairly certain the lesson Scottish Labour will learn next year will be sacking Leonard and carrying on as normal for a while. Maybe they'll move towards supporting Indyref2 but I wouldn't trust them to do that and to do it sincerely.

No, I voted Yes in 2014, supported the SNP and did some campaigning during the 2017 GE then switched to Labour at a UK level and Greens at a Scottish level until December of 2019. I was a Slab member beyond until this year but cancelled my DD which doesn't scrub your membership lol so I think I'm still technically here. I might actually be a member of CfS and Momentum. 

I went from an optimistic nationalist in 2014 to a resigned pessimist believing it's the best of the bad options.

 

Are you a member?

[San Starko Rover]

Jedi best wishes for the season to you too. I think you’re being extremely optimistic in thinking UK Labour are going to change as up here they’ve become so entrenched in their view of ‘Union at all costs’ that I can’t see a way back for them. We’ve got Uber Unionists running the SLAB and it’s pushed most Pro independence members out the party, Labour people in coalition with the Tories at Council level and even Labour people telling their voters to vote Tory to stop the SNP! As for Devo Max or federalism they pitch this up here to try and win votes but you rarely hear it mentioned in England which says a lot to me. Where’s Sir Keir’s demands Boris lives up to the Vow. It’s also all very vague we’ll look at it maybe sometime if you’re good.

As I said earlier Labour should be miles ahead of this Circus of Tories running Westminster in the Polls but you’re correct level going into next year with Brexit is not terrible, however Sir Kier has also had a very easy ride from the MSM so far who are distracted with Covid and Brexit. Look at how they demonized Corbyn how long until the ‘Sir Keir eats Israeli babies’ or he ‘receives Christmas cards from Gerry Adam’s’ stories appear in the gutter press then see his ratings drop.

I admire your optimism that they can and will change and deliver Devo Max for Scotland but having spent many years working down South I’ve found too many down there who I wouldn’t even consider Uber right will not vote Labour no matter what. It doesn’t matter what Boris or his band do the answer is always a shrug of the shoulders and “Labour would do worse”.