What is the point of labour ?

[Antlion]

38 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I am still interested to discover that folk are so keen to see a model which encourages austerity and privatisation, all whole leaving Scotland as a vassal state for corporate interests, the City of London, and foreign capital implemented as quickly as possible. As while continuing to be outside the EU..(can't have a Central Bank a crucial EU test), while having the Bank of England as lender of last resort.

Still, Andrew Wilson did dismiss opponents of his neo-liberal Independence model (currently shared by his good pal NS) as Marxist Revolutionaries'

Keen to see something that we literally have always lived with?

Starmer is a dirty, lying b*****d and I believe his latest face about as much as I believe Boris Johnson is going to be crowned Miss Teen America.

[Guest Jedi]

As said, implement Tory economic policy in an Independent Scotland, while not actually having economic 'control'...not for me. A serious vision of Independence which actually prioritises ordinary people, rather than lining the pockets of corporate interests, and invests in public services, while asking the better off to pay a fair share.....that I am on board with, but that certainly ain't the SNP's proposal.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jedi

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Keen to see something that we literally have always lived with?

Starmer is a dirty, lying b*****d and I believe his latest face about as much as I believe Boris Johnson is going to be crowned Miss Teen America.

I don't think Starmer is quite that bad but for those of us of a certain age this week certainly has echoes of an ebullient Neil Kinnock in 1983.  In other words, never ever underestimate the capacity for Joe Public to tell pollsters one thing and then vote Tory in the privacy of the ballot booth. 

The Tories might be in utter disarray right now but if they can quickly replace Truss and her cast of idiots with people even remotely competent whilst reassuring their base (pensioners, shareholders, the City, British Nationalists and generally self-interested greedy folk of whom there are millions) they will still fancy their chances in two years time.

In the same vein Sturgeon and Co have about the same time to convince people to continue to vote SNP.  She could do worse than replace the ineffective and at times risible Blackford with Tommy Sheppard as Westminster Leader ASAP.

[DA Baracus]

Why do so many people dishonestly and deliberately conflate the SNP with independence? Aye, the SNP are the main drivers of independence (which is why they get so many votes), but they are not independence. Independence isn't about the SNP.

This is largely a rhetorical question mind.

[Antlion]

36 minutes ago, Jedi said:

As said, implement Tory economic policy in an Independent Scotland, while not actually having economic 'control'...not for me. A serious vision of Independence which actually prioritises ordinary people, rather than lining the pockets of corporate interests, and invests in public services, while asking the better off to pay a fair share.....that I am on board with, but that certainly ain't the SNP's proposal.

Independence is not the SNP. It’s the chance for Scotland to make its own choices rather than having cycles of extended Tory cuntiness and brief interregnums of Labour con artistry thrust upon us. I certainly wouldn’t be voting SNP in any Scottish general election. In fact, recent weeks have entrenched the idea that I’d be voting for a party which didn’t lube up and bend over for Bonny King Charlie.

The fact that Labour are absolutely behind Brexit - a move designed to line the pockets of corporate interests - suggests to me that the UK has no chance of ever breaking its downward spiral. Starmer certainly won’t. He believes in nothing but gaining power and would change his coat depending on what the Tories are doing or not doing at any given point in time.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Antlion

[Guest Jedi]

Okay, a scenario. Either a) The Supreme Court decision goes their way, Scotland holds a referendum next year, and votes Yes, or (Plan) b At the next GE the SNP win 50+ seats, and (whoever) the UK govt is, agrees to negotiate Independence, given the SNP's single policy in the election.

Who will be negotiating the terms of Independence with Westminster, if not the Scottish govt? (ie the SNP). What is the SNP's current blueprint....Andrew Wilson's Growth Commission Report with it's sterlingisation et al. In other words, the initial parameters of Independence would be of a right wing flavour.

I take the point, that, post-Independence, you can vote for whoever you want in a future Scottish GE. However, any 'other' party would have to unpick the pieces of being tied to sterling, having Scottish markets opened up to private foreign ownership and investment, and administering cuts to public services.

Given that the SNP have such a large share of the vote, and they would have 'delivered' Independence, are they not likely to continue to dominate the first few Scottish GE's (and implement their 'Growth Commission'?)

So, no, the SNP aren't 'Indepedence',(as other parties will be there afterwards), but their hands are very much on the levers of it for some time to come yet.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

On Brexit, Labour are not quite 'totally' behind it. Yes, Starmer was for Remain, and now talks about 'making Brexit work'. However, as said before in politics, if he were to stand on a platform of 'vote for us and we will rejoin the EU/hold another Ref', he knows they would be totally sunk at the GE. Unlike the SNP, Labour is having to campaign across the whole UK, and try to hold votes together-of course the SNP can talk up 'rejoin the EU' in contrast as Scotland voted to Remain.

However, no Labour policy ever proposed an ultra Brexit, during the endless debates between 2016-20. Rather they sought the softest exist-staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, or even joining EFTA, as well as some in Labour calling for a 2nd Ref. In other words they tried to keep the damage to a minimum. As a result they were obliterated by 'Get Brexit Done' in 2019. 

Just because they have 'that' flag onstage this week, doesn't mean that they have turned into the ERG. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jedi

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Okay, a scenario. Either a) The Supreme Court decision goes their way, Scotland holds a referendum next year, and votes Yes, or (Plan) b At the next GE the SNP win 50+ seats, and (whoever) the UK govt is, agrees to negotiate Independence, given the SNP's single policy in the election.

Who will be negotiating the terms of Independence with Westminster, if not the Scottish govt? (ie the SNP). What is the SNP's current blueprint....Andrew Wilson's Growth Commission Report with it's sterlingisation et al. In other words, the initial parameters of Independence would be of a right wing flavour.

I take the point, that, post-Independence, you can vote for whoever you want in a future Scottish GE. However, any 'other' party would have to unpick the pieces of being tied to sterling, having Scottish markets opened up to private foreign ownership and investment, and administering cuts to public services.

Given that the SNP have such a large share of the vote, and they would have 'delivered' Independence, are they not likely to continue to dominate the first few Scottish GE's (and implement their 'Growth Commission'?)

So, no, the SNP aren't 'Indepedence',(as other parties will be there afterwards), but their hands are very much on the levers of it for some time to come yet.

As will the Tory/Labour shit-cyclone, which we have demonstrable evidence doesn’t work in favour of ordinary people.

You see, this works both ways. If, as you say, independence gained under the SNP means we’re starting the future (beyond 2023 or whenever) on a right-wing flavour, then rejecting independence means we’re starting the future (beyond 2023 or whenever) on a right-wing flavour.

The difference is that the Scottish electorate can change direction in one scenario and not in the other.

Any pie-in-the-sky notion that dependence can provide a future UK of hearts and flowers is undermined by pretty much the entire history of the UK.

[Guest Jedi]

Can you list the current Labour policies which are 'right wing'? As you say they are indistinguishable from the Tories?

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

On Brexit, Labour are not quite 'totally' behind it. Yes, Starmer was for Remain, and now talks about 'making Brexit work'. However, as said before in politics, if he were to stand on a platform of 'vote for us and we will rejoin the EU/hold another Ref', he knows they would be totally sunk at the GE. Unlike the SNP, Labour is having to campaign across the whole UK, and try to hold votes together-of course the SNP can talk up 'rejoin the EU' in contrast as Scotland voted to Remain.

However, no Labour policy ever proposed an ultra Brexit, during the endless debates between 2016-20. Rather they sought the softest exist-staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, or even joining EFTA, as well as some in Labour calling for a 2nd Ref. In other words they tried to keep the damage to a minimum. As a result they were obliterated by 'Get Brexit Done' in 2019. 

Just because they have 'that' flag onstage this week, doesn't mean that they have turned into the ERG. 

Which kind of supports my point that Starmer is a dirty b*****d devoid of principle. Rather than try and argue that the electorate of England and Wales fucked up by being taken in by spivs, he’s content to call out the spivs but refuse to acknowledge their success in gulling people. And he’s tepid even at that. Absolute shyster.

As long as Labour are determined to “make Brexit work”, even if they’re just wearing the lacy Union Jack undies rather than the full gimp suit, they can go f**k themselves.

[Guest Jedi]

So 'make Brexit work' is the only right wing 'policy' they currently propose.

Out of interest, being that you despise Labour and Tories (as they are the 'same', and you can't vote for the SNP post-Indepedence, which party is it, which will deliver the bold new Scotland? Think you are left there with the Liberals or the Greens.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jedi

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Can you list the current Labour policies which are 'right wing'? As you say they are indistinguishable from the Tories?

Labour have no policies at the moment (which is fair enough as they haven’t published a new manifesto). They have a whole raft of promises which I don’t believe for a second are anything more than that. And coming from a principle-vacuum like Starmer, I doubt they’ll ever be more than that.

I don’t think Labour are indistinguishable from the current crop of governing Tories. But in the last decade they’ve been very much Diet Tory. Is the party still determined to crack down on immigration, just in a cuddlier way?

[Antlion]

Just now, Jedi said:

So 'make Brexit work' is the only right wing 'policy' they currently propose.

Out of interest, being that you despise Labour and Tories (as they are the 'same', and you can't vote for the SNP post-Indepedence, which party is it, which will deliver the bold new Scotland? Think you are left there with the Liberals or the Greens.

 

Interesting that put in quote marks something I didn’t say.

[Brother Blades]

12 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Can you list the current Labour policies which are 'right wing'? As you say they are indistinguishable from the Tories?

Yeah, forbidding any opposition front bencher from attending & supporting strikers on a picket line is pretty right wing, in my opinion. Even the fucking disgrace of a Tory party allow former pickets to be in the cabinet. 

[Granny Danger]

20 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Can you list the current Labour policies which are 'right wing'? As you say they are indistinguishable from the Tories?

Refusing the people of Scotland the right to vote on Independence.  Very authoritarian and completely in line with their Tory counterparts.

 

[Guest Jedi]

On the point of a publicly owned Energy set up. This was promised by the SNP in 2017...nothing happened. In 2021 members at conference voted in favour of this...again nothing happened. Could it be that Nicola Sturgeon said one thing and then did another? Or is that only Keir Starmer?

It certainly is interesting to see who the SNP are quite happy to have cosy conversations with/strike deals with, like billionaire Sanjeev Gupta to whom they sold a Highland smelting plant for £5, with taxpayers financing the rest of a £339 million deal....or maybe Nick Macpherson, a former adviser to George Osbourne, who is a key player in Kate Forbes 10 year plan to unleash Scotland's entrepreneurial potential.

On energy she did however propose 'green freeports', but shock, horror, as the TUC report, are bound up with a Tory vision of Brexit friendly freeports as they sit outside the UK's main tax and tariff rules, with lower regulations to attract investment and business'. So, load the dice in favour of big business and against workers and the local communities (again).

[Guest Jedi]

2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Refusing the people of Scotland the right to vote on Independence.  Very authoritarian and completely in line with their Tory counterparts.

 

Where did he say that? Not quite the same as 'I won't form a coalition in government with the SNP is it'?

[Brother Blades]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Where did he say that? Not quite the same as 'I won't form a coalition in government with the SNP is it'?

How about my point? 

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

On the point of a publicly owned Energy set up. This was promised by the SNP in 2017...nothing happened. In 2021 members at conference voted in favour of this...again nothing happened. Could it be that Nicola Sturgeon said one thing and then did another? Or is that only Keir Starmer?

It certainly is interesting to see who the SNP are quite happy to have cosy conversations with/strike deals with, like billionaire Sanjeev Gupta to whom they sold a Highland smelting plant for £5, with taxpayers financing the rest of a £339 million deal....or maybe Nick Macpherson, a former adviser to George Osbourne, who is a key player in Kate Forbes 10 year plan to unleash Scotland's entrepreneurial potential.

On energy she did however propose 'green freeports', but shock, horror, as the TUC report, are bound up with a Tory vision of Brexit friendly freeports as they sit outside the UK's main tax and tariff rules, with lower regulations to attract investment and business'. So, load the dice in favour of big business and against workers and the local communities (again).

SNP BAD doesn’t = LABOUR GOOD.

[Brother Blades]

22 minutes ago, Jedi said:

So 'make Brexit work' is the only right wing 'policy' they currently propose.

Out of interest, being that you despise Labour and Tories (as they are the 'same', and you can't vote for the SNP post-Indepedence, which party is it, which will deliver the bold new Scotland? Think you are left there with the Liberals or the Greens.

 

The Greens are a far more viable vote than either Labour or the Tories, so not sure your point is as good as you think it is?