What is the point of labour ?

[Molotov]

Commentary from FT on Roger Waters recent shows. 
https://www.ft.com/content/140cc3d7-0a3e-4bba-9c72-38fb498f58e2

Waters grandfather died in WW1. His father died in WW2 when he was 5 months old. The guy fcuking loathes the politicians and leaders whose decisions cost the lives of so many innocent people. 

The imagery, music and lyrics from The Wall represents some very complex details to his childhood and his rise to stardom.

Should we also ban all images and music of Lemmy who collected and wore German WW2 memorabilia. Another who hated the establishment and religion for the insanity of war.

Maybe it’s a bass guitar thing. After all Sid Vicious wore Nazi insignia for shock value to cover up his limitations as a musician.

Are we now to ban every WW1 and WW2 films from being broadcast and cancel all the actors who have ever portrayed a Nazi?

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Molotov

[Fullerene]

17 hours ago, Zern said:

It's very short-sighted of Labour to ignore electoral reform. If the long-term goal is EU membership then it is one of series a necessary steps they need to take to change the Westminster system. They won't allow UK re-entry as is. That ship sailed 50 years ago.

That is it.  The EU are not interesting in discussing the UK going back into the EU if there is a possibility that a subsequent Tory government will just cancel the talks.  It will only happen if every likely government is in favour of the idea.

With FPTP, the Tories are always wary of being outflanked by the Nigel Farage Party and will always be more extreme as a result.

Hopefully with PR, the Tories will still be detestable but the worse elements would not have so much influence.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

1 hour ago, Fullerene said:

That is it.  The EU are not interesting in discussing the UK going back into the EU if there is a possibility that a subsequent Tory government will just cancel the talks.  It will only happen if every likely government is in favour of the idea.

With FPTP, the Tories are always wary of being outflanked by the Nigel Farage Party and will always be more extreme as a result.

Hopefully with PR, the Tories will still be detestable but the worse elements would not have so much influence.

I just can’t ever see us trying to get back into the EU.

Such a move would be electoral suicide for both the Tories and Labour.

Edited June 9, 2023 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[StellarHibee]

13 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I just can’t ever see us trying to get back into the EU.

Such a move would be electoral suicide for both the Tories and Labour.

Based on what? The polling suggests that a clear majority of the UK population now view Brexit as a joke. Labours support for brexit under Keir Starmer has nothing to do with public opinion.

[Wee-Bey]

There's likely to be a convergence with the EU and all the associated bodies over time without actually rejoining, which would probably require another referendum.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

26 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

Based on what? The polling suggests that a clear majority of the UK population now view Brexit as a joke. Labours support for brexit under Keir Starmer has nothing to do with public opinion.

I think it does.

Both parties need the red wall, which is largely pro-Brexit.

A lot of remainers who believe in democracy won't want to revisit the issue either, hence the Lib Dems' campaign of a 'people's vote' not being a vote-winner.

Opinion polling was too generous to Remain at the time of the EU referendum, so it's probably fair to say there's a good chance it still could be.

[StellarHibee]

7 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I think it does.

Both parties need the red wall, which is largely pro-Brexit.

A lot of remainers who believe in democracy won't want to revisit the issue either, hence the Lib Dems' campaign of a 'people's vote' not being a vote-winner.

Opinion polling was too generous to Remain at the time of the EU referendum, so it's probably fair to say there's a good chance it still could be.

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

1 hour ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

[StellarHibee]

19 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

That was then, this is now. Brexit clearly doesn't work and isn't offering these people the benefit they thought it would. All it has served to do is make their lives even harder. They've had enough time to come to terms with this which would explain the overwhelming shift in attitudes towards Brexit. Keir Starmer knows attitudes have changed towards it. But his pro-brexit stance is all about how it benefits him personally.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

The reality is that racism (or racialism) has played a huge part - and the political establishment are entirely to blame for that.

Labour and the Lib Dems for not being tough on racism and the Tories embracing racism because of UKIP.

It's easy to blame foreign people for "taking our jobs" because the politicians are too scared to call out this shite.

 

[Michael W]

2 hours ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

Maybe, but they went and voted for it despite it being the pet project of the political party that they profess to hate. 

I suppose they have gotten one thing that they wanted out of it, with less Europeans coming to the UK as a result. Wonder how they feel about EU immigrants being replaced by African and Asian immigrants instead? 

[RuMoore]

2 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

And due to not wanting to support Corbyn. 

Anyone expecting Labour to reopen this argument is doing so in bad faith. 

[Fullerene]

3 hours ago, StellarHibee said:

That was then, this is now. Brexit clearly doesn't work and isn't offering these people the benefit they thought it would. All it has served to do is make their lives even harder. They've had enough time to come to terms with this which would explain the overwhelming shift in attitudes towards Brexit. Keir Starmer knows attitudes have changed towards it. But his pro-brexit stance is all about how it benefits him personally.

If Labour were to mention Brexit at all, then suddenly it would become the only topic.

"They don't believe in democracy, they don't reflect the vote, they don't believe in this country".

Basically they have to wait until a large enough majority demand a second referendum.

 

[MazzyStar]

9 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The reality is that racism (or racialism) has played a huge part - and the political establishment are entirely to blame for that.

Labour and the Lib Dems for not being tough on racism and the Tories embracing racism because of UKIP.

It's easy to blame foreign people for "taking our jobs" because the politicians are too scared to call out this shite.

 

Because the tories were not racist before brexit or ukip? 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Because the tories were not racist before brexit or ukip? 

There always has been but with the rise of UKIP it's pretty obvious that the Tories have moved to the right.

[Zern]

On 09/06/2023 at 09:02, Fullerene said:

That is it.  The EU are not interesting in discussing the UK going back into the EU if there is a possibility that a subsequent Tory government will just cancel the talks.  It will only happen if every likely government is in favour of the idea.

With FPTP, the Tories are always wary of being outflanked by the Nigel Farage Party and will always be more extreme as a result.

Hopefully with PR, the Tories will still be detestable but the worse elements would not have so much influence.

The immediate consequences of ignoring electoral reform is that it makes any other planned reforms harder to make permanent. A future administration down the line can simply sweep away everything that the previous one achieved without ever needing a majority. Everything Brexit is an example.

It's also politically stupid. If The Labour Party were to introduce a policy of both PR and lowering the voting age. It would generate a lot of political goodwill and engagement that would surely guarantee them the largest share of the vote come the following election. It would also have a side benefit (from Labour's perspective) of vacating the SNP numbers in Westminster.

[Zern]

On 09/06/2023 at 10:56, Herc said:

There's likely to be a convergence with the EU and all the associated bodies over time without actually rejoining, which would probably require another referendum.

That would make sense. There are only two problems; membership of the CPTPP and the Retained EU Law bill, both of which are being progressed. The EU has a monitoring group that has highlighted those as potential conflicts with the existing TCA/WF.

Labour are promising a 'dynamic alignment'. This appears to be where a 3rd party country, outside the EU, aligns itself closely to enable trade. It has nothing to do with the EU itself though. 3rd party countries outside the EU are free to align how they want. It's something they can do all on their own. Be as dynamic as you want, the TCA allows for that. However, at this point it looks more like what Labour are promising is simply to fulfil the obligation of that are in the TCA/WF itself. All the stuff that the Tories have been delaying, postposing, or outright ignoring.

[MazzyStar]

13 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

There always has been but with the rise of UKIP it's pretty obvious that the Tories have moved to the right.

The party of Enoch Powell and many others like him moved to the right because of UKIP? Not buying that. They’ve always been this right wing, if not more. 

[btb]

11 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

The party of Enoch Powell and many others like him moved to the right because of UKIP? Not buying that. They’ve always been this right wing, if not more. 

Sure the Tories have always had their share of xenophobes over the last 50 years but the Cameron government was socially liberal or else they could not have tempted the Lib-Dems into coalition (2010-15). One of the affects of said coalition was to make it easier for Farage/UKIP to appeal to the "19^th Hole", reactionary segment of the Tory membership at the start of the last decade. Our FPTP system forced Cameron to make gestures towards Farage/UKIP by conceding the Brexit Referendum, the eventual aftermath of this was Johnson's hollowing out of the Tory party to "Get Brexit Done" which has ultimately led to an increased number of these types at Cabinet level. 

[StellarHibee]

7 minutes ago, btb said:

Sure the Tories have always had their share of xenophobes over the last 50 years but the Cameron government was socially liberal or else they could not have tempted the Lib-Dems into coalition (2010-15).

The tories could have been nazi-sympathisers under Cameron and the Lib Dems would have still jumped into bed with them for the power trip. They're not exactly the party of sensibility and decency that they try to portray.