Alba Gu Brath!

[Waspie]

This isnt new but it seems to have just hit the national press in the last few days. The SFA have refused appeals to have the word 'Alba' on the Scotland jersey. David Taylor said the team and country are called 'Scotland' and there's no need to put Alba on the strip. In fact it seems he was quite patronising about it.

This just sums up Taylor/SFA ignorance about history for one, the country was formed as Alba and only got translated to Scotland in later times when most of us gave up speaking the nations founding language. People always say Alba is Gaelic for Scotland when really historically it makes more sense to say Scotland is what English speakers call Alba!!!

I understand Wales have both the English name for their nation and the native Cymru on their jersey and its very popular, (Im sure Eire on their jersey, maybe Celtic fans can confirm that ) and we should have the same. Its only four letters anyway, its not going to take over our jersey.

I would imagine the Tartan Army would be broadly in favour of this, we've stolen enough symbols of Alba already with the highland dress!

Any thoughts........

[Guest LJ]

Taylor is an @rse. I'd love to see Alba on a Scotland jersey and I'm sure most of the Tartan Army would agree!

[Chris]

To be honest I don't think it's highly important, would rather have a good team to go and watch

Might be a nice touch, but Taylor and the rest probably have more to worry about right now.

[Guest SeD]

This just sums up Taylor/SFA ignorance about history for one, the country was formed as Alba and only got translated to Scotland in later times when most of us gave up speaking the nations founding language.

To be fair, there is some doubt on how widespread the use of Gaelic was - the Lothians and Borders were Welsh-speaking until the Anglo-Saxon invasions when the use of 'English' spread from the south. Much of Caithness and the Northern Isles were Norse-speaking until late in the 16th century. The latter have no tradition of Gaelic as a 'language of the people'. The Strathclyde area was Welsh-speaking until the unification under Kenneth MacAlpin. The Gaels themselves were 'invaders' in the 5th and 6th centuries AD and the rise of the language was directly linked to the rise in prominence of the MacAlpins and their successors. Gaelic was the language of the court for a good few centuries and people who wanted to 'get on' needed to learn it, but with the advent of the Stuarts, it's 'importance' declined.

Is there a General Nonsense for the Tartan Army forum ? 'Cos this post just might belong there

[The Trainbairn]

Thank goodness we did ditch this Alba nonsense-They used to make crap stereos!

Seriously though,given that no-one south of Wick speaks Gaelic why should we pander to a minorities wish to stay in the past.This is the 21st century, not the 15th!!

And whilst we are at it,can we ditch than anthem playing before the games or at last pick something inspiring rather than the dire nonsense we play at the moment.No wonder our players don't start well with Flower Of Scotland having put them to sleep before the game..

Steven

The Trainbairn

[Waspie]

I suspect you are taking the piss but the ignorance in both these posts is breathtaking

You seem to have missed the point that the Scots were a Gaelic speaking people, Gaelic was the forming and native language of Scotland. English may have taken over in many places but thats no reason to ditch our nations roots. Im afraid you would have to go a long way to find another country (England, Wales and Ireland put us to shame) which is not only so ignorant about the nations roots, but actually want to discriminate against them Simply suggesting we put the name onto our football jersey isnt much but still brings out the anti-Gael brigade.

How did you figure Gaelic was a thing of the 15th century by the way? Its a living language for many thousands of people in Scotland, and even in certain areas of Canada.

One of the few points made which made a small bit of sense, that Gaelic isnt the tradional language of Caithness and the Northern Isles, was negated by thecomment that "nobody south of Wick speaks Gaelic". Given Wick is in Caithness and the Northern Isles is pretty much the only Scottish territory north of it that makes bugger all sense

The most important thing is however is what the fans who go to Hampden and buy the strips etc think, and those Ive spoken to about this have been overwhelmingly in favour.

[Guest SeD]

I suspect you are taking the piss but the ignorance in both these posts is breathtaking

You seem to have missed the point that the Scots were a Gaelic speaking people, Gaelic was the forming and native language of Scotland. English may have taken over in many places but thats no reason to ditch our nations roots. Im afraid you would have to go a long way to find another country (England, Wales and Ireland put us to shame) which is not only so ignorant about the nations roots, but actually want to discriminate against them Simply suggesting we put the name onto our football jersey isnt much but still brings out the anti-Gael brigade.

How did you figure Gaelic was a thing of the 15th century by the way? Its a living language for many thousands of people in Scotland, and even in certain areas of Canada.

One of the few points made which made a small bit of sense, that Gaelic isnt the tradional language of Caithness and the Northern Isles, was negated by thecomment that "nobody south of Wick speaks Gaelic". Given Wick is in Caithness and the Northern Isles is pretty much the only Scottish territory north of it that makes bugger all sense

The most important thing is however is what the fans who go to Hampden and buy the strips etc think, and those Ive spoken to about this have been overwhelmingly in favour.

Would you care to point out the 'ignorance' shown in my post, please. I await with anticipation .

[The Trainbairn]

The Tartan Army in general are an embarresment to me with their antics and I still see any move to get Alba on the Scottish shirt political correctness gone way overboard...

We shoudl be trying to move with the times and get away from our Tartan shortbread,braveheart image and try and encompass more of what Scotland is about these days.

Steven

The Trainbairn

[Waspie]

Trainbairn I have to say you are a classic example of the Scottish Cringe. What the hell has Gaelic to do with short bread tins etc? Thats just your own outdated stereotypes at work. Its just a modern language as any other, and like Ive said the daily language of many thousands of people.

Gaelic is the native founding language of the Scottish nation, having Alba next to Scotland in prominent places isnt political correctness gone mad, its common sense.

You say want to see more of "what Scotland is about these days"; sounds good to me but I would like to know what you actually mean by that? Im all for Scotland being an outward modern country but not at the expense of ditching our indigenous culture!

SeD I was addressing Trainbairn more and his Wick comment in particular to be honest. Your post is a bit questionable and misleading though. If we apply your rules then large swathes of Scotland have no (or only a very recent) tradition of English being the language of the people.

The kingdom of Strathclyde spoke Welsh (or a Cymbric language similar to it) but thats not the region of Strathclyde as we know it today as your post implied, it was a much smaller kingom.

Dumfries and Galloway were Gaelic speaking as was much of Ayrshire. You say the Gaels came in the 5th and 6th centures yet place name evidence tells us they were here well before that. Gaelic's importance may have declined under the Stuarts but it wasnt until they were displaced that the decline really began.

People nowadays think of Gaelic as being some remote distant language spoken by a few islanders. In reality until comparitively recent times it was the native language right down to the highland line, and of 50% of the Scottish people.

There are still native Gaelic speakers living in their own communities south of Edinburgh and Glasgow. There's kids going to Gaelic primary schools in cities and towns all over Scotland, a huge number of which dont come from a Highland background. Their parents recognise the importance of it and also the benefits to a child of being fluent in 2 languages by an early age, proven to be a huge help in then picking up more languages.

But people still dont hear enough Gaelic or enough about it and they write it off, this thread proves that. Putting the name Alba on its rightful place on the Scotland jersey would be one small step forward and would raise the profile of the language.

It would also tell people around the world that we arent (completely) a sad little monoglot country with no interest in promoting our own culture

[Guest SeD]

SeD I was addressing Trainbairn more and his Wick comment in particular to be honest. Your post is a bit questionable and misleading though. If we apply your rules then large swathes of Scotland have no (or only a very recent) tradition of English being the language of the people.

This is, of course, true, but I was merely countering your assertion that Gaelic was Scotland's (as a whole) native language. I made no similar claim for English. Although, English has succeeded where Gaelic never did, obviously.

The kingdom of Strathclyde spoke Welsh (or a Cymbric language similar to it) but thats not the region of Strathclyde as we know it today as your post implied, it was a much smaller kingom.

True. I should have made that clearer. However, the kingdom of Rheged (Cymric-speaking) which abutted onto Strathclyde contained a large area of modern-day Scotland as well as Cumbria

Dumfries and Galloway were Gaelic speaking as was much of Ayrshire. You say the Gaels came in the 5th and 6th centures yet place name evidence tells us they were here well before that. 

I have no problem accepting that Gaels were wandering around Scotland before 400 AD. The 5th and 6th centuries are given in the 'traditional' histories (Fergus mac Erc?) as marking the rise of the Gaels to power culminating in the unification of much of Scotland when MacAlpin succeeded to the Pictish throne.

Gaelic's importance may have declined under the Stuarts but it wasnt until they were displaced that the decline really began.

This is probably a mix-up in the semantics of the word 'important'.

If we take 'important as 'spoken by a significant proportion of the population' then again you are completely correct. Gaelic was of course the majority (and for most, the only) language in the Noth and West until the clearances.

However, if we take 'important' as meaning the 'language of power and culture' then the rot set in much earlier. I'd suggest that the appearance of the Scoto-Norman and Anglo-Norman nobility after 1066 and all that was the first nail in the coffin. Possibly, Bruce's campaigns against the English were the last time a Scottish monarch used the Celtic credentials of the nation as an instrument of state.

In reality until comparitively recent times it was the native language right down to the highland line, and of 50% of the Scottish people.

And that line has played a significant role in the politics of Scotland throughout the centuries: almost as though as there were two Scotlands. Mi-run mor nan Gall as they used to say

[Swampy]

I know less than nothing about the linguistic history of the Scots, and am finding all of this extremely interesting. Do keep it up

Just to clear up some of the population figures, however (I read this site quite a lot, it's absolutely fascinating):

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GLS

[Guest SeD]

I know less than nothing about the linguistic history of the Scots, and am finding all of this extremely interesting. Do keep it up

Just to clear up some of the population figures, however (I read this site quite a lot, it's absolutely fascinating):

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GLS

Cheers for the link - looks v. interesting.

[Swampy]

It's interesting and sad at the same time. There are pages that list all the "Extinct" and "Nearly Extinct" languages, and there are HUNDREDS of them.

It's also interesting to find out where linguistic history seems to thrive in the most improbable circumstances. Plattdietsch (a Mennonite branch of German) is still spoken as a primary language in places as far flung as Belize, Kazakhstan, and Germany.

[Guest SeD]

It's interesting and sad at the same time. There are pages that list all the "Extinct" and "Nearly Extinct" languages, and there are HUNDREDS of them.

I'm not sure sad sums it up. You definitely feel sad on a personal level for someone who can no longer use their native language to someone else. There were examples of languages with just 1 speaker left on that web-site. When a language goes, a different way of looking on the world goes with it.

However, attempts to stop language decline have generally failed and 'forcing' people to take up a language certainly does not work. So, we may have to remain slightly saddened.

It's also interesting to find out where linguistic history seems to thrive in the most improbable circumstances. Plattdietsch (a Mennonite branch of German) is still spoken as a primary language in places as far flung as Belize, Kazakhstan, and Germany.

The history of English itself is quite illuminating: how a vernacular language turned the tables to become the world language (albeit with an American accent)

[Waspie]

Mi-run mor nan Gall is alive and well it seems Or Mi-run mor muinntir na h-Eaglaise Bhric going by this thread.

I havent claimed Gaelic as Scotlands native language of the present day SeD, my only point was it was the founding native language of the nation, which is a fact. The ways things have evolved English is by far the dominant lingo but that doesnt mean we forget (deny) our roots.

Also why do we have to call Gaelic the language of the north and west? The traditional highland line isnt far from Falkirk! Perthshire, the Trossachs. Kintyre and Gigha arent in the north! Dumfries and Galloway arent either. Ths is the point, people are always writing off the language as some distant island thing.

Id also argue the importance and influence of Gaelic remained (and remains) strong well beyond Bruce. It was a Gaelic army which almost brought down the British state in 1745/6! It was those Gaelic armies which were a constant menace to the state up until that time, and the bedrock of its imperial armies for some time after.

Even today you will see Gaels in prominent positions around Scotland, and the recent consulation process on the Scottish Parliaments Gaelic language bill recieved a record number of returns from the public.

You clearly have an interest in history SeD, surely you dont believe in discriminating against such an important piece of Scotland culture? Im not trying to impose the language onto you or anybody, just to put the word ALBA on its rightful place on the national jersey!

And just for Nach0king - at one point the mid 19th century 30% of the population of Greenock spoke Gaelic!

[Swampy]

They may still do, for all I know, I tend not to venture into the underworld

[Guest SeD]

Mi-run mor nan Gall is alive and well it seems   Or Mi-run mor muinntir na h-Eaglaise Bhric going by this thread.

I doubt it's hatred and I doubt it's confined to Falkirk. But there is work to be done convincing the majority of Scots of the contemporary relevance of Gaelic

I havent claimed Gaelic as Scotlands native language of the present day SeD, my only point was it was the founding native language of the nation, which is a fact. The ways things have evolved English is by far the dominant lingo but that doesnt mean we forget (deny) our roots.

I've heard it said that the Scottish 'establishment' suffers from a mixture of emotions when dealing with the question of Gaelic and the Gaidhealtachd. Since the reformation until the '45, Gaeldom was seen as a Catholic blot in a predominantly (and harshly) Protestant country, but the resulting oppression and clearances (effectively ethnic cleansing, albeit with the clan leaders involved in the cleansing) are difficult for a nation to deal with. It is easier to ignore than confront.

Also why do we have to call Gaelic the language of the north and west? The traditional highland line isnt far from Falkirk! Perthshire, the Trossachs. Kintyre and Gigha arent in the north! Dumfries and Galloway arent either. Ths is the point, people are always writing off the language as some distant island thing.

Surely that's pushing a point a tadge too far, Waspie. Kintyre, Gigha, Dumfries and Galloway may not be in the North but they certainly are in the West. If I'd said 'the language of the West and North' would that have sounded better? Which would still leave us with Perthshire and the Trossachs to gnaw over

Id also argue the importance and influence of Gaelic remained (and remains) strong well beyond Bruce. It was a Gaelic army which almost brought down the British state in 1745/6! It was those Gaelic armies which were a constant menace to the state up until that time, and the bedrock of its imperial armies for some time after.

Again completely true but not the full story. You could just as easily state that it was a Catholic army which caused panic in '45/6. I'm not sure that the welfare of the Gaelic language and culture was uppermost in Charlie's mind. I also doubt that if the '45 had succeed the future of the Highlands and Islands would have been much different. Power and influence would have remained in London, Hanoverian or Stuart, and the process of anglicisation of the clan chiefs would not have been arrested

You clearly have an interest in history SeD, surely you dont believe in discriminating against such an important piece of Scotland culture? Im not trying to impose the language onto you or anybody, just to put the word ALBA on its rightful place on the national jersey!

A decision in which I have no role to play. Tha mi Sasunnach I do have an opinion, however, and I'd go for it

[Waspie]

Why wouldnt you have a role SeD? You would appear to live in Scotland and be a Scottish fitba fan. Plus I know plenty of Sassenachs who speak Gaelic You seem to have a bit of Gaelic yourself anyway, is math a rinn thu

We could probably argue for ever on the "north and west" point. Im just concerned that people hear that and immediately think of Wester Ross and the Western Isles, when in reality the Gaidhealtachd stretches far into the east and south.

I totally agree with you that the Gaelic language was not high on Charles Edward Stuart's list of priorities in 1745 but Id argue it certainly was for the men who came out for him, and for his father and grandfather in the years before that. These people knew the govt which was in place intended to do away with Gaelic culture whereas the Stuarts, while not doing anything to support it, would at least let it live in peace. I disagree totally that the fate of the highlands would have been the same had the Jacobites won in 1746. There wouldnt have been ethnic cleansing and its unlikely we would have seen clearance to anywhere near the same scale. The mainland Highlands might not have been the desert they are today.

Much of the Jacobite support in the highlands in the 18th century was Protestant, they werent fighting for religious liberty but for their way of life. Or because their houses would be burned down if they didnt

[Guest SeD]

Why wouldnt you have a role SeD? You would appear to live in Scotland and be a Scottish fitba fan.

I also have Scottish blood in my veins through a Glaswegian grandmother (Denistoun, to be exact) although she grew up in Yorkshire from the age of ten.

I don't regard myself as having a role because I'm not Scottish. I've been here for 6 good years and may stay for many more but that doesn't give me the right to decide on how Scotland expresses herself. I'll content myself with flying the flag for Scottish football when I visit down south.

Plus I know plenty of Sassenachs who speak Gaelic You seem to have a bit of Gaelic yourself anyway, is math a rinn thu

I can count to 10 and say hello in about a dozen languages. It never gets further than that though, despite my best intentions

[RH33]

As my Dad so kindy points out-he needs 30k for new school toliets but can't get it. But if he wanted a Gealic jigsaw for a nursery he would get 300K. It is a piece of nonsence.