ShedruleFTD83 Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Piss off. I can't believe a thread about a stupid fat twat making a predictably moronic comment has descended to this. The Dundee side that won the league in 61/62 and reached the European Cup semis the following year were, by all accounts, magnificent. The manner in which they reached the semi-final is all the more remarkable. United, to their credit, managed the same achievement in the early 80s. However, it's pretty clear from many acclaimed football historians (and normal punters old enough) that the standard of Scottish football in the 60s was much better than that in the 80s. Thus, the Dundee league winning team is the greatest side this city has ever produced. End of debate. Its not end of debate, United's side of the late 70's to late 80's will do down as one of the best in Scottish history and certainly higher than Dundee's side that won the league, why because we sustained challenges to the league over the course of many seasons, we qualified for Europe 13 times running, going on runs to quarters semi's and a final, made countless domestic finals & semi finals, as well as the Premier Division win & league cup wins. Lets also compare the league formats, the Premier Division is clearly a harder league to win than the old first Division, especially for non old firm sides as you need to play the better sides 4 times a season as opposed to 2, to win the league we had to play celtic home & away twice, same with rangers and same with aberdeen, yourselves etc, in the old 18 team format there were many weaker teams with nothing to play for, another thing is when Dundee won the league defences werent exactly on top, during that era of the late 50's early 60's nearly every season there were teams lower down in the league scoring 60/70+ goals in 34 games, the year Dundee won the league they scored 80 goals and united in 10th place scored 70, defences had improved considerably by the time we won the title, 2 seasons before Dundee won the league Hearts won it scoring 102 goals, Hibs in 6th place scored 106, st mirren in 14th scored 78, there are examples from every season like this from that time. So you can say a few elderly people who saw both teams said this and that they are entitled to that opinion, the fact is that after the Lisbon Lions, Aberdeen 80's and Rangers 9iar, United's side of the 80's will go down as the next best Scottish side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommohawk Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Its not end of debate, United's side of the late 70's to late 80's will do down as one of the best in Scottish history and certainly higher than Dundee's side that won the league, why because we sustained challenges to the league over the course of many seasons, we qualified for Europe 13 times running, going on runs to quarters semi's and a final, made countless domestic finals & semi finals, as well as the Premier Division win & league cup wins.Lets also compare the league formats, the Premier Division is clearly a harder league to win than the old first Division, especially for non old firm sides as you need to play the better sides 4 times a season as opposed to 2, to win the league we had to play celtic home & away twice, same with rangers and same with aberdeen, yourselves etc, in the old 18 team format there were many weaker teams with nothing to play for, another thing is when Dundee won the league defences werent exactly on top, during that era of the late 50's early 60's nearly every season there were teams lower down in the league scoring 60/70+ goals in 34 games, the year Dundee won the league they scored 80 goals and united in 10th place scored 70, defences had improved considerably by the time we won the title, 2 seasons before Dundee won the league Hearts won it scoring 102 goals, Hibs in 6th place scored 106, st mirren in 14th scored 78, there are examples from every season like this from that time. So you can say a few elderly people who saw both teams said this and that they are entitled to that opinion, the fact is that after the Lisbon Lions, Aberdeen 80's and Rangers 9iar, United's side of the 80's will go down as the next best Scottish side. I can't stop laughing at your middle paragraph. So, by your hypothesis, it was a piece of piss to win the league when Dundee won it, but not when United won it? Don't you know that the league is setup to ensure it's a level playing field over the course of the season; if it was so bloody easy why didn't United win? Was that due to them only playing teams that were trying and Dundee not? I can see you have thought long and hard about this, but your theory holds about as much water as a sieve, so please go away and think again. Also, the guy said Bob Crampsey stated that Dundee team (one season I believe) was the best he had saw. This being someone who is highly respected (check out all the recent tributes) and is unbiased. Unlike someone called ShedRuleFuckTheDee'83, whose opinion I would doubt is unbiased. Also, what you represent as "fact" can never be a fact as football is subjective. Finally, did you even see both teams to state "factually" that United were better? How many of the great United team (and they were great, but so was Dundee's from what I have heard) went on to greater things? SO, can you please f*ck off back to where you came from before spouting such rubbish again. Honestly, I never seen the great Dundee team, but any team who beat the German Champions 8-1 (I think) must be good, and that has to be the greatest result ever by a Scottish football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedruleFTD83 Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I can't stop laughing at your middle paragraph. So, by your hypothesis, it was a piece of piss to win the league when Dundee won it, but not when United won it? Don't you know that the league is setup to ensure it's a level playing field over the course of the season; if it was so bloody easy why didn't United win? Was that due to them only playing teams that were trying and Dundee not? I can see you have thought long and hard about this, but your theory holds about as much water as a sieve, so please go away and think again. Also, the guy said Bob Crampsey stated that Dundee team (one season I believe) was the best he had saw. This being someone who is highly respected (check out all the recent tributes) and is unbiased. Unlike someone called ShedRuleFuckTheDee'83, whose opinion I would doubt is unbiased. Also, what you represent as "fact" can never be a fact as football is subjective. Finally, did you even see both teams to state "factually" that United were better? How many of the great United team (and they were great, but so was Dundee's from what I have heard) went on to greater things? SO, can you please f*ck off back to where you came from before spouting such rubbish again. Honestly, I never seen the great Dundee team, but any team who beat the German Champions 8-1 (I think) must be good, and that has to be the greatest result ever by a Scottish football team. No it wasn't easy to win it, is you stupid? i at no point said that, your just p!ssed off because ive made some good points, it wasn't as difficult is what i meant as after the league changed to 10 teams, having to play each other 4 times a season and also like i explained defences had improved by then, look at the league tables of the late 50's and early 60's and see how many teams lower in the table were scoring 60/70+ goals in 34 games, i gave you some examples, the 18 team league format wasnt a good thing and thankfully it changed. Obviously the Dundee side were a good side but they didnt sustain anything and that cant be argued really, thats not taking away from the achievement of being league winners pointing that out. We were in our 2nd season in the top flight at that point since the 1920's, we finished above dundee the season before and after you won the league, not too shabby, i dont recall dundee finishing above us during the time we were league winners. That United team had 5 players in a World Cup Scotland Squad at one point, we had players who had as much experience of european football as any in Britian, Narey held the record for European games played by a Scottish player till Bawwy Ferguson beat it last season(though he done so in the days of qualifiers and groups games & dropping from one competition to another) Great result no doubt, greatest though, thats debateable again, certainly would be upthere, i could put down a few results from United that i'd put above that but then thats natural, Archie MacPherson reckons United's 87 win in the Nou Camp is the best single result by a Scottish side in Europe and according to dee logic that counts for something , Celtic, Rangers Aberdeen and even Killie have some great results they could put forward aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvery tay Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Good on Paul Sturrock. All right-thinking football fans should hate Scumdee. No need to be bitter just because yer wee jakey Greenock team sucks...........wanna be our bitches again this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariusz Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Archie MacPherson reckons United's 87 win in the Nou Camp is the best single result by a Scottish side in Europe and according to dee logic that counts for something Archie McPhersons opinion counts for nothing. Comparing Crampsey with McPherson is like comparing Barcelona with a lump of shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedruleFTD83 Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Archie McPhersons opinion counts for nothing. Comparing Crampsey with McPherson is like comparing Barcelona with a lump of shite. I'm not doubting Dundee were not a great side in 1961/63, they just werent able to maintain it for any length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stainrod's Fedora Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I'm not doubting Dundee were not a great side in 1961/63, they just werent able to maintain it for any length of time. That's because the team broke up soon after the European Cup run. It's a great pity Dundee didn't sustain their success. However, longevity aside, I still claim that that Dundee side were better than their 80s United counterparts. Just for a shorter period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariusz Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I'm not doubting Dundee were not a great side in 1961/63, they just werent able to maintain it for any length of time. I do hear what you're saying however no Dundee supporter is claiming anything other than the side of 61/62. Longevity is a different topic altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommohawk Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 No it wasn't easy to win it, is you stupid? i at no point said that, your just p!ssed off because ive made some good points, it wasn't as difficult is what i meant as after the league changed to 10 teams, having to play each other 4 times a season and also like i explained defences had improved by then, look at the league tables of the late 50's and early 60's and see how many teams lower in the table were scoring 60/70+ goals in 34 games, i gave you some examples, the 18 team league format wasnt a good thing and thankfully it changed. Obviously the Dundee side were a good side but they didnt sustain anything and that cant be argued really, thats not taking away from the achievement of being league winners pointing that out. We were in our 2nd season in the top flight at that point since the 1920's, we finished above dundee the season before and after you won the league, not too shabby, i dont recall dundee finishing above us during the time we were league winners. That United team had 5 players in a World Cup Scotland Squad at one point, we had players who had as much experience of european football as any in Britian, Narey held the record for European games played by a Scottish player till Bawwy Ferguson beat it last season(though he done so in the days of qualifiers and groups games & dropping from one competition to another) Great result no doubt, greatest though, thats debatable again, certainly would be upthere, i could put down a few results from United that i'd put above that but then thats natural, Archie MacPherson reckons United's 87 win in the Nou Camp is the best single result by a Scottish side in Europe and according to dee logic that counts for something , Celtic, Rangers Aberdeen and even Killie have some great results they could put forward aswell. I must say I totally disagree with you, and I'm not pissed off you have come up with some valid points. as I don't think your logic adds up. When there was 18 teams, I assume there was more relegation spots than there is in the current setup, hence more teams trying to avoid it. If the current setup is so good why have they tinkered with it and why do people call for more teams per league? If ten is so good why don't any of the big leagues adopt this strategy. From what you are saying, because Dundee played in a bigger league, this means that it was easier, and takes away from their achievement. Are you saying that if it was a 10 team league they wouldn't have won? Also, if a ten team league is so hard to win, why is it only Celtic and Rangers who win it every yeat? If we adopted back to 18, would this open it up again? There are so many flaws in your argument I am finding it hard to type them down. From what you are saying, only teams with something to play for win? It's all a load of balony! Teams play in their era, and as I said previously no-one can "factually" state who was the better team, there can only be opinions. To win the league in any set era generally means you are the best team of that time. Will you now say the famous Brazilian team had it easy cos defences were pish and there was less teams at the World Cup? I used Bob Crampsey as an example as he is probably the most respected journalist we've had, but to quote Archie McPherson is scraping the barrel, he doesn't know his "Archie" from his elbow. So, using the Brazil team as an example, whom nearly everyone regards as the best team ever, and who were from the same era, defies what you are trying to say. You are trying to dilute Dundee's success by saying "ach it was a piece of piss to score back then, defences were shit, even I could've got a game"! Regarding the best result, Dundee played against 10 men, but I think you'll struggle to find a better one. Was the United result in the UEFA Cup (Just asking I honestly can't remember, although I do remember the build up for some queer reason!) or were they playing the Spanish Champions. Obviously if they were Champions then yes I'd agree it was a good result, but to put 8 past the German champions has probably never happened before, and won't happen again. I think a city of Dundee's size to have both teams reach the European Semi-Final's is phenomenal, and will never happen again, so they should both be held in the highest regard. You will obviously think United's team was better, and I'll say Dundee, but to the neutral they'd probably say they were both great. One thing I'll take exception to though is this sustained success you talk about, that doesn't mean much. It's the actual peak that everyone is referring to, not a broad spectrum of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweeperDee Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Wonder what Sturrock thinks just now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed118 Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Wonder what Sturrock thinks just now? This must have taken a bit of digging out #committment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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