Granny Danger Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not sure if this should be going in here or in the normal politics thread but anyway, Lib Dem in trouble for comments on Israel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21194991 I get that saying 'the jews' is extremely clumsy at best, but beyond that I don't see what's he said that's offensive. He hasn't said there's a moral equivalence or that human rights abuses directed at Palestinians are as bad as the Holocaust, just that these abuses happen. Can't disagree with his comments. No doubt there will be the usual suggestion of anti semetism. Whatever you do don't criticise Israel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not sure if this should be going in here or in the normal politics thread but anyway, Lib Dem in trouble for comments on Israel: http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-21194991 I get that saying 'the jews' is extremely clumsy at best, but beyond that I don't see what's he said that's offensive. He hasn't said there's a moral equivalence or that human rights abuses directed at Palestinians are as bad as the Holocaust, just that these abuses happen. I don't see what else he could call them, after all he mentions Auschwitz and that a 1 000 000 people - mostly Jews - died there ("died" is hardly the right word either murdered, exterminated, worked to death would be more appropriate). Calling them Israelis wouldn't be correct, there are Israeli Christians and Israeli Moslems, and it wasn't Israelis who were incarcerated in the death camps it was Jews (and other "undesirables", too). So I don't really see what all the fuss is about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure how his "use of language" could be improved. He couldn't use "Israelis" instead of "Jews" because he's connecting two time periods, there was no Israel in the first. When I criticize the actions of Israel I try to say "The Israeli Government" rather than the Jews, or the Israelis, just to make it clear. If you mention "Palestine" the Israeli Government lobbyists go apeshit. They love it if you just slag off the "Arabs" though. Our politicos and press are far too wary of them. P.S. I see I've more or less repeated what Jacksgranda said.. P.P.S. edited because I think he's Jack's grandfather rather than car Edited January 25, 2013 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not sure if this should be going in here or in the normal politics thread but anyway, Lib Dem in trouble for comments on Israel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21194991 I get that saying 'the jews' is extremely clumsy at best, but beyond that I don't see what's he said that's offensive. He hasn't said there's a moral equivalence or that human rights abuses directed at Palestinians are as bad as the Holocaust, just that these abuses happen. He's bang on. Don't see why he should be in soapy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Israel is a rogue terror state and it's my view that it should be invaded by NATO forces and it's government removed. The individuals should be detailed and delivered to the Hague for trial. Detailed? Like getting a number tatooed on their wrist, for instance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 P.P.S. edited because I think he's Jack's grandfather rather than car Sometimes I feel like his car, though - the amount of times I ferry him (and his sisters) up and down the road! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Whatever you do don't criticise Israel. Indeed. The Russian-Israeli Mafia don't appreciate that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Conflating "the Israeli state" and "the Jews" several times is just a little bit xenophobic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Silly and inaccurate, yes. Xenophobic? Are you sure? If someone blamed "the Muslims" for the atrocities carried out by the Taliban, they'd rightly be called out as xenophobic. Castigating an entire ethnic or religious group for the war crimes of a sovereign state displays a contempt for their very being. It's xenophobic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 If someone blamed "the Muslims" for the atrocities carried out by the Taliban, they'd rightly be called out as xenophobic. Castigating an entire ethnic or religious group for the war crimes of a sovereign state displays a contempt for their very being. It's xenophobic. I've been trying to source the original wording but can't find it. According to the BBC website he refers to the Jews in Israel. If so that's a factually accurate statement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I've been trying to source the original wording but can't find it. According to the BBC website he refers to the Jews in Israel. If so that's a factually accurate statement. The quote was: Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza. It conflates Jews with Israelis. I'm not sure that's what xenophobic means. It is absolutely encompassed within the meaning of xenophobia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 The quote was: It conflates Jews with Israelis. It is absolutely encompassed within the meaning of xenophobia. "Founded in 1948, Israel is the world's only Jewish State" - THE JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 It really doesn't seem so bad in that context. And, I don't think so. He accuses "the Jews" of something that is being done by Israeli government. The Israeli government =/= "the Jews". It is not legitimate to denigrate an entire race based on the actions of a sovereign state. "Founded in 1948, Israel is the world's only Jewish State" - THE JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY You say that like it's relevant. It's not "The Jews" =/= "The state of Israel which identifies as a Jewish state". In much the same way as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan =/= "The Muslims" -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 You say that like it's relevant. It's not "The Jews" =/= "The state of Israel which identifies as a Jewish state". It is to those who govern Israel, is it not?! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 It is to those who govern Israel, is it not?! No, not remotely. Israel is not run by "the Jews". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 No, not remotely. Israel is not run by "the Jews". Nobody said that it was run by "the Jews". Are you drunk?! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Ad Lib, I thought you were Mr Nuance. Why are you pretending not to understand what was meant by the admittedly clumsy statement? He also plays Mr Pedantic when it suits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) Pointing out that it's a wee bit off to say 'the Jews' aren't responsible for Palestinian atrocities isn't really being pedantic. It would only be clumsy if the guy was an off the street idiot. He's not. Would you also be OK with someone saying 'the Muslims' were responsible for 9/11? Edited January 27, 2013 by monkfish 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lau03143 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I think it goes back to Israel being intrinsically with being jewish. The state was effectively created after the war to say sorry for what had happenned. To be called an Israeli/Israelite is effectively the same thing as being Jewish if you're from that neck of the woods. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Pointing out that it's a wee bit off to say 'the Jews' aren't responsible for Palestinian atrocities isn't really being pedantic. It would only be clumsy if the guy was an off the street idiot. He's not. Would you also be OK with someone saying 'the Muslims' were responsible for 9/11? I get the point your making, but my understanding of what the guy said (still can't find the original, only what other sources are claiming) is that it was the Jews in Israel. Now not all Israelis are Jewish, though there's no evidence that non Israeli Jews support the actions against Palestinians, and there are many Jews in Israel that are totally opposed to successive governments' policies towards the Palestinians. So in those respects the statement, even as reported, could have been better worded. Equally, however, how often do we hear Palestinians described as 'militants', a pejorative description, whenever there are clashes between them and the 'Israeli security forces'. No outrage there whether the comments are coming from the politicians or the media. This attack on David Ward is just another facet of the pro Israeli lobby, any criticism, implicit or explicit, of Israel must be jumped on from a great height. The myth that is perpetrated that anti Zionism is anti semetism is part of the same mindset. We need more condemnation of what is happening to the Palestinians, not less. And I believe that the guys that hijacked the planes during 9/11 were Muslims. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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