Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[THE KING]

If P&B was around during the apartheid regime we would undoubtedly see the apologists for white supremacy arguing similar positions to the pro Zionists.

Who knows, they may even be the same posters.

I can just see Adam telling us the blacks left their land willingly and the whites just want peace and their white only immigration policy isnt racists.

[adam4267]

I can just see Adam telling us the blacks left their land willingly and the whites just want peace and their white only immigration policy isnt racists.

I wasn't alive during apartheid so don't have a clue about it m8

[adam4267]

After weeks of IDF attacks, which in many cases have led to a breakdown in Hamas’s chain of command, there is growing skepticism in Hamas about whether the fighting continues to be worthwhile.

As Operation Protective Edge enters its eighth week on Tuesday, Hamas has taken a severe military and morale blow, but its military arm is preparing for another round of fighting believing the price its people are paying is tolerable as long as its goals are achieved.

This is the assessment of senior Israeli security officials who nevertheless say there is growing skepticism among Hamas operatives about whether the fighting continues to be worthwhile considering the number of Hamas fighters who have been killed, the destruction of key military installations, the hit on the rocket manufacturing capabilities, and the destruction caused to the terror tunnels, which Hamas viewed as its “Day of Judgement” weapon.

According to these assessments, in some cases, mid-level commanders – concerned that their homes would be destroyed – preferred to flee with their families from the areas of fighting. As a result, those fighters who remained often felt abandoned and lost the will to continue to fight.According to these assessments, the IDF attacks in Gaza -- including damage to the homes of senior Hamas commanders -- the killing of commanders as well as damage done to the more junior military level led in many instances to a breakdown in Hamas’s chain of command, and even the abandonment of the rank and file on the battlefield.

In other cases, according to the assessment, some of the Hamas fighters felt their superiors completely abandoned them. One instance was reported where 14 Hamas fighters were trapped for 20 days in a tunnel, surviving only on water and dates – with no effort by their commanders to rescue them. Some of the men starved to death.

According to information obtained by the security services, immediately after the kidnapping of the three Israeli youths in Gush Etzion in mid-June, various Hamas commanders went underground, making it impossible to consult with them.

While there was dissatisfaction toward the commanders from the rank-and-file, there was also often dissatisfaction from the commanders toward the fighters, especially in the eastern sector of Gaza where there was displeasure among the senior ranks to the resistance put up against the IDF ground incursion.

According to these assessments, the intensity of the Israeli attacks, the damage down to the commanders, the intelligence and the destruction of the tunnels surprised Hamas officials, some of whom did not believe that Israel was prepared to make a ground incursion into Gaza.

The targeted assassinations and the intelligence information regarding the tunnels created a great deal of suspicion of people collaborating with Israel, and this suspicion led often to abandoning the use of advanced technological equipment, which made management of the fighting for Hamas's top brass even more difficult.

According to the assessments, the prevailing mood in the street is one of bitterness and anger toward Hamas, whose leaders were among the first to hide and left the civilians to fend for themselves.

In one instance, women at Shifa Hospital beat up Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri and prevented him from speaking, as they shouted at him that while their sons were killed and homes were bombed, he was hiding in the hospital.

Hamas's grave condition, and its need to motivate its people, led to a situation where it confiscated aid allowed into the Strip and passed it over to its own people, at the expense of others.

Meanwhile, numerous Hamas activists have been arrested and interrogated over the past seven weeks, and described the degree to which mosques and hospitals were used as staging grounds and hiding places, and where areas near pre-schools were commonly used as starting points for tunnels and as hiding places for arms.

Among the prominent examples:

Abd al-Rahman Balousha, from Khan Yunis, said that the Alsafa and Alabra mosques there serve as a staging ground for Hamas terrorists.

Muhammad Ramadan from Khan Yunis said his anti-tank weapons training took place in a hall located under the Alshafi mosque in Khan Yunis. He added that the hall serves as an Izzadin Al-Kassam Brigades training and instruction facility, and is closed to non-military personnel.

Muhammad Alqadra, from Khan Yunis, said “everyone knows that Hamas leaders are hiding in hospitals,” where they have armed bodyguards, visible to all, usually wearing police uniforms. He estimated that Hamas head Ismail Haniyeh was hiding in Shifa hospital in Gaza, apparently in an area not accessible to citizens, and accompanied by security guards in civilian clothes.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Security-officials-paint-picture-of-Gaza-street-seething-and-Hamas-in-disarray-372337

[THE KING]

I wasn't alive during apartheid so don't have a clue about it m8

what your excuse for this one then?

[adam4267]

what your excuse for this one then?

What?

[THE KING]

What?

for knowing nothing about Israels apartheid.

[adam4267]

for knowing nothing about Israels apartheid.

I don't know anything about apartheid in Israel. Why don't you tell me about it so I am ignorant no longer.

[THE KING]

I don't know anything about apartheid in Israel. Why don't you tell me about it so I am ignorant no longer.

Its a legal definition of what blacks went through in SA and what Palestinians are still going through...with no lesser people than Nelson Mandela and Desmond TuTu calling what Isreal do , Apartheid..

Here educated yourself..

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html

[adam4267]

Its a legal definition of what blacks went through in SA and what Palestinians are still going through...with no lesser people than Nelson Mandela and Desmond TuTu calling what Isreal do , Apartheid.. Here educated yourself.. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html

Why don't you explain it to me so that I, and everyone else in the thread will know?

[THE KING]

Here you go , although I get the feeling only you and your fellow apologists wont get it....

Apartheid. ..

According to Article II of that convention, the term applies to acts "committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." Denying those others the right to life and liberty, subjecting them to arbitrary arrest, expropriating their property, depriving them of the right to leave and return to their country or the right to freedom of movement and of residence, creating separate reserves and ghettos for the members of different racial groups, preventing mixed marriages — these are all examples of the crime of apartheid specifically mentioned in the convention.

[THE KING]

Oh and heres some ethnic cleansing quotes from various Israeli leaders about "the arab problem"

http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/websitematerials/mapsg/mapsg16zionistquotes.html

[adam4267]

Here you go , although I get the feeling only you and your fellow apologists wont get it.... Apartheid. .. According to Article II of that convention, the term applies to acts "committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." Denying those others the right to life and liberty, subjecting them to arbitrary arrest, expropriating their property, depriving them of the right to leave and return to their country or the right to freedom of movement and of residence, creating separate reserves and ghettos for the members of different racial groups, preventing mixed marriages — these are all examples of the crime of apartheid specifically mentioned in the convention.

You're right I don't get it, because you haven't explained it. All you've done is say what the definition of apartheid is. How does that apply to israel?

[Granny Danger]

Yes, and backing the retention of the Orange state in Northern Ireland, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, General Franco in Spain, Professor Snape at Hogwarts & any other pantomime baddie you wish to throw in the mix.

Knee jerk assuming someone who holds an opinion on a matter you dislike intensely automatically means they will be in favour of any number of pet bête noires is silly at best, downright childish at worst.

No it's based on the idea that certain people will support the oppressors over the oppressed based upon a perspective of 'western civilisation'.

BTW I trust you are not using the term pantomime baddie to describe either the proponents of the apartheid regime or the government in Israel.

[adam4267]

No it's based on the idea that certain people will support the oppressors over the oppressed based upon a perspective of 'western civilisation'.

BTW I trust you are not using the term pantomime baddie to describe either the proponents of the apartheid regime or the government in Israel.

It seems like quite an applicable term for Israel. Maybe they are bad in some respects but people seem to love shouting about how they are much worse than they really are, make up lots of lies about them, compare them to the very worst people in history - all while ignoring everything going on in other countries around them.

[MONKMAN]

It seems like quite an applicable term for Israel. Maybe they are bad in some respects but people seem to love shouting about how they are much worse than they really are, make up lots of lies about them, compare them to the very worst people in history - all while ignoring everything going on in other countries around them.

The worrying thing is that it would appear, that you actually believe this pish.

[THE KING]

The worrying thing is that it would appear, that you actually believe this pish.

By his own admission he knows "f**k all" about apartheid ,but he knows you're a liar if you compare Israels policy on Palestinians to white South Africa's on blacks.

[adam4267]

By his own admission he knows "f**k all" about apartheid ,but he knows you're a liar if you compare Israels policy on Palestinians to white South Africa's on blacks.

Not what I said (not like you to lie!) and also still waiting on you to tell me how Israel is apartheid. Considering the UN have an exact definition it shouldn't be too difficult.

[THE KING]

Not what I said (not like you to lie!) and also still waiting on you to tell me how Israel is apartheid. Considering the UN have an exact definition it shouldn't be too difficult.

Oh UN sorry,,

A UN human rights investigator has accused Israel of ethnic cleansing and apartheid policies against Palestinians.

Richard Falk, the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said Israel carried out a "systematic and continued effort to change the ethnic composition of East Jerusalem".

Falk, an 82-year-old American, said that in recent years Israel had made it more difficult for Palestinians to reside there while encouraging the building of new Jewish settlements, which are illegal under international law.

Falk, an emeritus law professor at Princeton University, said that more than 11,000 Palestinians had lost their right to live in Jerusalem since 1996.

"The 11,000 is just the tip of the iceberg because many more are faced with possible challenges to their residency rights," he said.

Falk, who is Jewish, described Israeli policies as bearing "unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing".

[THE KING]

Even Israelis believe it..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-new-israeli-apartheid-poll-reveals-widespread-jewish-support-for-policy-of-discrimination-against-arab-minority-8223548.html

....".....The poll, conducted by Israel's Dialog polling group, found that 59 per cent out of the 503 people questioned would like to see Jews given preference for public-sector jobs, while half would like to see Jews better treated than Arabs.

Just over 40 per cent would like to see separate housing and classrooms for Jews and Arabs. The findings "reflect the widespread notion that Israel, as a Jewish State, should be a state that favours Jews," wrote Noam Sheizaf, an Israeli journalist and blogger. "They are also the result of the occupation … After almost half a century of dominating another people, it's no surprise that most Israelis don't think Arabs deserve the same rights."

[adam4267]

Even Israelis believe it..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-new-israeli-apartheid-poll-reveals-widespread-jewish-support-for-policy-of-discrimination-against-arab-minority-8223548.html

....".....The poll, conducted by Israel's Dialog polling group, found that 59 per cent out of the 503 people questioned would like to see Jews given preference for public-sector jobs, while half would like to see Jews better treated than Arabs.

Just over 40 per cent would like to see separate housing and classrooms for Jews and Arabs. The findings "reflect the widespread notion that Israel, as a Jewish State, should be a state that favours Jews," wrote Noam Sheizaf, an Israeli journalist and blogger. "They are also the result of the occupation … After almost half a century of dominating another people, it's no surprise that most Israelis don't think Arabs deserve the same rights."

So a poll shows that people want to see these kind of things happen. That means they're not already happening now does it not?

Apartheid - according to your own definition - is "committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them"

How does that apply? Which racial group is being 'systematically opressed'?