Reynard Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 You're slipping. I'm not, I have a good grasp of this subject for once. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffy Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ICBM Mark 2 Are you SS-18? yes he is. reynard and others stuck SS18 on ignore so he came back as this guy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I wouldn't say they have become "more extreme" seeing as their stated aim in their charter is to eradicate all traces of Israel and Judaism from the area. They are jihadists who want a single arab Islamic nation in the area. I also want to see a two state solution, most normal folk do, but Hamas don't want that and will simply carry on firing rockets into Israel to provoke the response they are getting now. It certainly DOES play into their hands and the body count also plays into their hands and doesn't actually bother them at all. Israel could of course simply ignore the rockets coming over or ignore the suicide bombings which used to be a daily occurrance, but they do have a responsibility to their own citizens, Jew and Arab alike to protect them. And Hamas know this and will not stop. There will be a ceasefire for a period of time and then it will start again, or at least die back a bit to levels Israel might just accept. But ultimately it will just carry on as before, there willl be periods of escalation, Israel WILL continue to attempt to cut off the snakes head with targetted assassinations and the whole thing will continue. Do you honestly believe that even if we went back to the initial 1948 borders for instance, that hostilities will cease? I don't, because I know that there is a pretty large element of these arabs who are jihadist Islamists and they will never stop until they turn the area into what they want to see. They will never accept an Israeli state as was proven in 1948 when they attempted to wipe it out on day one of it's formation. That mindset will never die and there will never be peace in this area. As long as Israel remains and as long as their are Jews in percieved Islamic lands then this will carry on in some form or other. Israels actions do indeed make things worse at times, but even if they did nothing at all they will still be a target. Its either a sitting duck target or a moving one as now, but they will remain a target nonetheless. If you starve Hamas of support, then they lose their power. If you do what Israel do, then Hamas will continue to grow. It really is that simple. The way to stop this is by making individual people happy and content, give them something to lose, and watch support for extremism fall away. Israel though, freely admit to starving people, and they seem to be taking actions to stop education. If people can't go to school, then they won't get an education. If they don't get an education, then they are more inclined to fall for extremism. The solution is always to tackle the root of the issue. If the ordinary people are educated and relatively content, then they are less inclined to support lunatic fringes. This isn't a radical statement, its a proven fact. One which Israel seems hell bent on ignoring. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If you starve Hamas of support, then they lose their power. If you do what Israel do, then Hamas will continue to grow. It really is that simple. The way to stop this is by making individual people happy and content, give them something to lose, and watch support for extremism fall away. Israel though, freely admit to starving people, and they seem to be taking actions to stop education. If people can't go to school, then they won't get an education. If they don't get an education, then they are more inclined to fall for extremism. The solution is always to tackle the root of the issue. If the ordinary people are educated and relatively content, then they are less inclined to support lunatic fringes. This isn't a radical statement, its a proven fact. One which Israel seems hell bent on ignoring. It may do. But the jihadist Islamist mindset is available throughout Islam and isn't confined to the Gaza strip. Israel has over a million arabs living inside it's borders and they are given an education and all the rest of it and have the same rights as any other Israeli citizen. They are not being driven out as Jews are in other Muslim states and indeed in the immediate neighbourhood of Israel. I think it's probably better to judge Israel for how they treat their own citizens inside their own borders than expect them to be responsible for how another state treats it's own citizens. If rockets keep being fired over the border then they will respond with force, everyone knows this and everyone would expect their own state to respond in a similar way. You look after our own citizens because they pay tax to the state to be protected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If you starve Hamas of support, then they lose their power. If you do what Israel do, then Hamas will continue to grow. It really is that simple. The way to stop this is by making individual people happy and content, give them something to lose, and watch support for extremism fall away. Israel though, freely admit to starving people, and they seem to be taking actions to stop education. If people can't go to school, then they won't get an education. If they don't get an education, then they are more inclined to fall for extremism. The solution is always to tackle the root of the issue. If the ordinary people are educated and relatively content, then they are less inclined to support lunatic fringes. This isn't a radical statement, its a proven fact. One which Israel seems hell bent on ignoring. Should Israel simply accept the fact that rockets will continue to be fired into it's state from outwith? Is that what you are saying? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Should Israel simply accept the fact that rockets will continue to be fired into it's state from outwith? Is that what you are saying? It's the exact opposite of what he's saying. But biting the bullet and trying to come to a peaceful agreement rather than continuing to brutalize the Palestinian people is probably the best way to go about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) SKY bias exposed by Galloway... Edited November 19, 2012 by Colkitto 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It's the exact opposite of what he's saying. But biting the bullet and trying to come to a peaceful agreement rather than continuing to brutalize the Palestinian people is probably the best way to go about that. There can't be a peaceful agreement. Thats the whole fucking point I have been making for days now. If the state of Israel is not going to be recognised by some then there is no prospect of any peace. A Palestinian state will not make peace happen either. There have been a few attempts to make peace. Israel wholly fucked off out of Gaza leaving not a Jew in the place. People left their homes and businesses behind for that to happen and still the rockets came over. Still the suicide bombers came across and Hamas continued to attempt to smuggle in military equipment. Israel doesnt bomb Jordan or Syria or Egypt anymore because they brokered a peace deal and stuck to it. They all did pretty much apart form the odd random scuffle. Israel handed Sinai back to Egypt too in oder to get peace, which HAS lasted so far. Gaza seems to be a different story, mainly because it is being run by a bunch of jihadist Islamists who dont want peace and who dont recognise Israel as a state, and who want rid of it. Do you think Hamas will suddenly change their minds or something? I'd like to see a peace agreement between Gaza and Israel, but while we might get a short term ceasefire I can't see any room for movement with Hamas in charge. That's surely a bit of a problem for any peace talks. Hamas would need to alter their charter almost totally in order to do this. It's not going to happen, and Hamas are not going to go anywhere anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 There can't be a peaceful agreement. Thats the whole fucking point I have been making for days now. If the state of Israel is not going to be recognised by some then there is no prospect of any peace. A Palestinian state will not make peace happen either. There have been a few attempts to make peace. Israel wholly fucked off out of Gaza leaving not a Jew in the place. People left their homes and businesses behind for that to happen and still the rockets came over. Still the suicide bombers came across and Hamas continued to attempt to smuggle in military equipment. Israel doesnt bomb Jordan or Syria or Egypt anymore because they brokered a peace deal and stuck to it. They all did pretty much apart form the odd random scuffle. Israel handed Sinai back to Egypt too in oder to get peace, which HAS lasted so far. Gaza seems to be a different story, mainly because it is being run by a bunch of jihadist Islamists who dont want peace and who dont recognise Israel as a state, and who want rid of it. Do you think Hamas will suddenly change their minds or something? Actually, they bulldozed and carted away their homes and businesses so that not a trace remained behind for the Palestinians to actually use. They left behind absolute economic devastation. So lets not try and put too much of a spin on it eh? And when you leave behind misery and devastation, who do you think people will support? Oh, and while withdrawing from there, they stepped up their actions in the west bank significantly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Actually, they bulldozed and carted away their homes and businesses so that not a trace remained behind for the Palestinians to actually use. They left behind absolute economic devastation. So lets not try and put too much of a spin on it eh? And when you leave behind misery and devastation, who do you think people will support? Oh, and while withdrawing from there, they stepped up their actions in the west bank significantly. The whole fog of war has gone into overdrive though, and it makes rational discussion almost impossible. Take for example the previously mentioned two-state solution. Equally the anti-Semitism which clouds much of the Arab world makes any reasoned discourse nigh on inconceivable. So what we are left with is a bunch of folk people yelling more loudly than each other. It's an almighty f**k up, but when seemingly responsible politicians talk of blowing people to the dark ages, and showing cute little cartoons of 90% bombs, it's hard to suggest the general observer should restrain themselves. More to the point, Israel needs to see that all it is doing is increasing support for Hamas. (Although equally, the views of the Taliban are incredibly disparate depending on which group of people you ask). Ultimately, though, it's all about balance of power. An Israel left to its own devices...? Edited November 19, 2012 by Savage Henry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I'd like to see a peace agreement between Gaza and Israel, but while we might get a short term ceasefire I can't see any room for movement with Hamas in charge. That's surely a bit of a problem for any peace talks. Hamas would need to alter their charter almost totally in order to do this. It's not going to happen, and Hamas are not going to go anywhere anyway. It's clearly going to take a change from both sides, I'm not denying that. And I'm not sure how realistic peace is any time soon either but if one or both sides keep acting the way they are, that's a sure fire way to keep this thing going. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) I don't see this escalating tbh it's more just a show of strength by the israelis they'll be too much pressure from the US Edited November 19, 2012 by THE KING 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Dr Norman Finkelstein, who lost his entire family to the Holocaust, exemplifies why the notion that Judaism is equal to Zionism is wrong. Quality lecture there from Finkelstein. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Talking of conspiracies, it's awfully strange that Israel's right wing government have kicked off with the Mooslims in the immediate run up to an election. Nothing to see here, move along as quick as you can, thankyou. Edited November 19, 2012 by SS-18 ICBM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It was awfully strange when Netanyahu decided to make more noise about Iran when his approval rating was dropping. Not that I'm saying a man who has spent his entire political career campaigning on security would do such a thing. For the record, I obviously have an issue with Israel's actions. ^^^ anti-Semitic, imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Israel has no interest in peace with her neighbours and never has. The reason for that is that peace is strategic death for the 'Jewish state'. The Balfour Declaration coerced out of the black pit of WW I. The Nabka, the source of the 'middle east problem', a brutal act of ethnic cleansing committed in shadow of WWII. The 1967 war, i.e. another mass land grab, lands never relinquished. Israel needs to be in a state of perpetual war because only then can it have 'opportunities' to acquire more physical territory in particular the Litani River in Lebanon is now highly coveted. Right now the 'demographic problem' means the Palestinian Arabs would soon out-breed them so they desperately need a (final) solution (the irony is appalling of course). Specifically the desperately need an excuse to force out the hordes of ethnically cleansed Arabs and their descendants now couped up in Gaza and other enclaves. Israel has totally destroyed any chance of a two state solution and yet she is completely unable to live with the consequences of a one state solution, as it would be the end of the 'Jewish State'. They have painted themselves into a corner of epic proportions. So look forward to more endless war there. With some major event that enables Israel to force out the Gaza population (probably into Egypt) using 'security' and 'terrorism' as the excuse.. Israel is a doomed state, not because of the Arabs but because of the Israeli's themselves, they are now in a death spiral, falling ever further into racial / religious supremacist extremism. Bad things are going to happen and the nutters in charge of Israel are capable of going for the 'Sampson Option' when the end approaches. We should all be very worried at events over there. Pesky Kazarians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Actually, why Is it that all the Lunatic Zionist fans on here are both Unionists and right wingers? Its a weird Sort of Overlap... You have answered your own question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Jews are terrible people who control the world. ^^^ anti-Semitic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If you're talking about Reynard, this is a man who has previously praised Mossad's actions to the heavens and encouraged them. See this thread for details. Or are you going to claim that he is "neutral" now? Btw, people always turn to more extreme organisations in times of suffering. Logically, if Israel wanted Hamas stopped, they'd starve them of support by improving conditions, showing that they're not all bad, and providing some secret funding to help moderate parties rise. Oh, and perhaps stop with the settlements. But all they are doing is increasing support for Hamas all the time. That is all this weeks "back to the middle ages" (no condemnation on this thread I see from the usual suspects) actions are going to do is increase support for Hamas and other extreme movements. It is short sighted idiocy. Reynard enjoys watching people suffer death and destruction so long as it isn't happening around his head. I think Reynard could do with a little visit from Dexter to be honest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I agree with Reynard. Again ^^^ Fancies Reynard, imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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