Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran/Lebanon)

[Fotbawmad]

As Jews have been persecuted and killed in nearly every single country in the world I don't see how it's unreasonable to want a place where they can live in peace. I certainly don't understand how you seem to equate the very act of Jews wanting a nation as racist.

According to Wikipedia (from the 2009 government study http://cbs.gov.il/reader/newhodaot/hodaa_template.html?hodaa=201019211) around 40% of Jews in the country are secular and another 25% are non-religious-traditionalists. In addition 25% are non-Jewish so that would mean the majority of people in the country are not religious Jews.

Every religion has been persecuted throughout the ages, and I don't see how they're treated any worse than other religions today. Muslims receive far worse treatment in Europe than they do. There is absolutely no need to have their own state. I wouldn't exactly argue they're safe in their country either when they're surrounded by countries (citizens) who hate them, and it's not because of their supposed faith.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Fotbawmad

[THE KING]

The reason it is the Jewish homeland isn't because of the bible. That is where Jewish people were from before they were expelled. Judaism isn't a religion like christianty it's a nation. Israel isn't a theocracy, it's a secular democracy like the UK. Anyone is free to practice any religion (or no religion, which is what the majority of people in Isreal do) and the legal system isn't based around biblical book.

Jews didn't want a country so that it could be a one religion state - people of all religions have always been able to live there. Israel actually has a more diverse population that the UK. The reasons Jews want and need their own country is quite simply because Jews aren't really safe in any other country in the world.

....and thats why they ethnically cleansed a million arabs out their land and have ban on anyone from an arab country emigrating to israel....unless their Jewish of course .

here, read the quotes from Israels first priminister......a sectarian state from day one......

http://www.seamac.org/EthnicCleansing.htm

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[THE KING]

Jews aren't safe in any other country in the world?

Or to put it another way:

The Hamas rocket attacks Israel is using to justify its actions aren't really a threat at all and the people in Israel are safer than anywhere else they could possibly be.

aye the old Jewish people arent safe anywhere crap, funny how most dont live in Israel then? Even some Jews aren't safe in israel...if their black that is.

such a vile place....http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[welshbairn]

As Jews have been persecuted and killed in nearly every single country in the world I don't see how it's unreasonable to want a place where they can live in peace. I certainly don't understand how you seem to equate the very act of Jews wanting a nation as racist.

It was the actions they took in getting it that were racist, driving out most of the existing population, and then pretending they never existed.

Edited August 9, 2014 by welshbairn

[Sergeant Wilson]

When we move the Palestinians to the Falklands the Israelis could have Greenland.

[THE KING]

It was the actions they took in getting it that were racist, driving out most of the existing population, and then pretending they never existed.

Youre still forgetting Adam and some other pro Israelis are in denial about israels ethnic cleansing of 500 arab villages

It never happened. ..

http://www.imemc.org/article/65690

A retired Israeli military general told the Israeli Army Radio on his 100 birthday that the Israeli army destroyed and depopulated hundreds of Arab villages in order to establishment the state of Israel in 1948, and added that he feels good about it.

I can sleep with clear mind, Yitzhak Pondak, told the Israeli Army Radio [Galei Tzahal] last week, otherwise the number of Arabs in Israel would have been a million more than their number now.

Pondak headed Platoon #53 of the Givati Brigade, and served as Israels ambassador in Tanzania.

Under my command, soldiers destroyed Arab villages, he said, We did what we needed to do, otherwise the number of Arabs now would have been a million more.

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[parsforlife]

As Jews have been persecuted and killed in nearly every single country in the world I don't see how it's unreasonable to want a place where they can live in peace. I certainly don't understand how you seem to equate the very act of Jews wanting a nation as racist.

According to Wikipedia (from the 2009 government study http://cbs.gov.il/reader/newhodaot/hodaa_template.html?hodaa=201019211) around 40% of Jews in the country are secular and another 25% are non-religious-traditionalists. In addition 25% are non-Jewish so that would mean the majority of people in the country are not religious Jews.

You make life easy by quoting sources that disagree with what you say.

I never said racist but yes It could be described as such if you consider Judaism a race/ethnic group as you do.

[THE KING]

From Hiddish an Israeli/American study group...

Israels bigoted marriage laws put them on a par with Iran and Saudi Arabia..

The “Freedom of Marriage World Map” is an annual report produced by the Hiddush-Freedom of Religion for Israel organization that examines and compares the status of freedom of marriage around the world.

According to that organization, the “main and original purpose of the map was to investigate Israel’s standing on freedom of marriage in comparison to world standards.”

The conclusion of that organization is that Israel “ranks among some of the most fundamentalist countries in the Islamic world on this issue.”

Hiddush has the following to say about Israel’s marriage laws:

Only recognized religious marriage ceremonies are allowed.

For Jews, only weddings that are held according to strict Orthodox standards are accepted.

There is no option for civil marriage or interfaith marriage.

300,000 citizens are defined as ‘without religion’ and they are unable to get married in the country.

Israeli law permits only religious marriages held by religious testimony, and does not allow civil marriages.

Among the Jewish population, the Chief Rabbinate, which operates according to Orthodox Jewish standards, has a monopoly over marriage.

Only those who are recognized as Jews according to Orthodox Jewish law can get married in Israel.

Members of other religions can only marry spouses of the same religion and only by their own recognized religious authority.

The result is that no interfaith or non-religious marriages are allowed.

The Law of Return which allows up to second generation descendants of Jews and their spouses to immigrate to Israel and receive citizenship, but prevents them from getting married.

This also applies to individuals whose fathers or grandfathers are Jewish but their mother or grandmother is not. They are excluded due to Orthodox Jewish law which stipulates that Judaism is determined by the mother.

There are also individuals who are Jewish according to Orthodox law, but who lose their marriage rights in certain circumstances.

Those defined by the rabbinical authorities as illegitimate (born to a women who conceived a child with a man who is not her husband) are considered ineligible for marriage.

Divorced women are not allowed to marry men who carry any of the traditional “Cohen” family names (denoting families who are considered to be the direct descendants of the ancient Israelite priests and who, by law, are forbidden from marrying divorcees and converts).

The State of Israel only recognizes Jewish marriages that are officiated by recognized Orthodox rabbis.

Marriages conducted by rabbis of any other Jewish affiliation (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Renewal) are not recognized.

The Law of Return recognizes converts who converted in a non-Orthodox ceremony. They are allowed to receive Israeli citizenship, but the Chief Rabbinate does not recognize them as Jews and does not consider them eligible for Jewish marriage.

This creates a situation in which converts who joined Judaism through progressive movements and in some cases, Orthodox converts who converted by moderate Orthodox rabbis, cannot get married in Israel.

Due to Israeli Supreme Court rulings from the 1960s, the Ministry of Interior registers and accepts civil marriages held abroad.

The question of the validity of civil marriages that were held abroad has yet to be decided in Israel, and there are many contradicting opinions and rulings on this matter.

Israel was the only Western country that received a grade of “0” by the Hiddush ranking, putting it in the company of Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan with regard to marriage laws.

[adam4267]

You make life easy by quoting sources that disagree with what you say.

I never said racist but yes It could be described as such if you consider Judaism a race/ethnic group as you do.

I don't consider Judaism to be a race. I said it is a nation and you said it is a race. Anyone of any colour, ethnicity or race can be Jewish and can become a Jew. The problem is that Judaism doesn't fit into the categories of countries like Britain. If someone defines themselves as a Jew that is their nationality, ethnicity and religion. Of course most Jews may have more than one of each of those things or may not feel like they belong to one of those categories as a Jew - because it is a choice not a compulsion.

aye the old Jewish people arent safe anywhere crap, funny how most dont live in Israel then? Even some Jews aren't safe in israel...if their black that is.

such a vile place....http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/

Is that another zionist myth then? Is anything you don't agree with a zionist myth?

And yes, there is discrimination towards black jews in Israel. Some people are racist just like any other country in the world. But, firstly, the Israeli government actually brought those people to Israel so they wouldn't die in the Ethiopian Civil War. And they spent huge amounts of money to help integrate them into society. Unfortunately it didn't work very well because it isn't that easy to integrate tens of thousands of people from villages in Africa who have never had electricity in their house before into an industrialized western country. But children of those immigrants are integrating much better into society. I'm sure you'll still find a way to decry that as racism and use it to call for the destruction of the Zionist state though.

[THE KING]

I don't consider Judaism to be a race. I said it is a nation and you said it is a race. Anyone of any colour, ethnicity or race can be Jewish and can become a Jew. The problem is that Judaism doesn't fit into the categories of countries like Britain. If someone defines themselves as a Jew that is their nationality, ethnicity and religion. Of course most Jews may have more than one of each of those things or may not feel like they belong to one of those categories as a Jew - because it is a choice not a compulsion.

Is that another zionist myth then? Is anything you don't agree with a zionist myth?

And yes, there is discrimination towards black jews in Israel. Some people are racist just like any other country in the world. But, firstly, the Israeli government actually brought those people to Israel so they wouldn't die in the Ethiopian Civil War. And they spent huge amounts of money to help integrate them into society. Unfortunately it didn't work very well because it isn't that easy to integrate tens of thousands of people from villages in Africa who have never had electricity in their house before into an industrialized western country. But children of those immigrants are integrating much better into society. I'm sure you'll still find a way to decry that as racism and use it to call for the destruction of the Zionist state though.

So they saved thousands of Ethiopians thats great stuff....Oh wait it was only Jewish Ethiopians they saved, then white jews where marching in the street demanding "they went home"...irony anyone? Not to mention demanding racially segregated schools ..aye right enough how could that be seen as racist?!

ETA if Jewish people arent safe anywhere in the world then why do most not live in Israel?

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[madwullie]

Pretty sure he said it was racist?

[parsforlife]

I don't consider Judaism to be a race. I said it is a nation and you said it is a race. Anyone of any colour, ethnicity or race can be Jewish and can become a Jew. The problem is that Judaism doesn't fit into the categories of countries like Britain. If someone defines themselves as a Jew that is their nationality, ethnicity and religion. Of course most Jews may have more than one of each of those things or may not feel like they belong to one of those categories as a Jew - because it is a choice not a compulsion.

Seems like you are happy to twist what Judaism means depending on the scenario.

If it's a choice then It makes it sound very much like a religion, and open to criticism just like any other choice. If its not a choice then it's not acceptable to discriminate based on that characteristic.

Edited August 9, 2014 by parsforlife

[THE KING]

Pretty sure he said it was racist?

Pretty sure he back peddled on his last sentence...anyway look for yourself...

When the children of south Tel Aviv head back to school on Tuesday, kindergarteners will attend facilities that are segregated by race. The children of asylum seekers from sub-Saharan Africa will go to their kindergartens and all the other kids will go to their own. As of this year, the municipality of Israel's most liberal city decided that separate-but-equal for three-to-six year olds was the way to goin 2013.

According to a report published by Ynet (Hebrew edition), the city built the new preschools for black children after Jewish-Israeli residents of the inner city area threatened to keep their children at home rather than allow them to learn how to count, fingerpaint and play on the swings alongside their peers from Eritrea and Sudan.

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[adam4267]

So they saved thousands of Ethiopians thats great stuff....Oh wait it was only Jewish Ethiopians they saved, then white jews where marching in the street demanding "they went home"...irony anyone? Not to mention demanding racially segregated schools ..aye right enough how could that be seen as racist?!

So it's that a bad thing then? Is it wrong that the US and UK evacuate its citizens out of warzones then do not help the people affected?

You display the view of a minority of extremists in the country like it reflects the government policy then use that to call the entire state racist. You're entire view around Israel is based around wanting it destroyed and no matter what they do you hate it and find a way to use everything it has ever done to justify you're view of it.

Seems like you are happy to twist what Judaism means depending on the scenario.

If it's a choice then It makes it sound very much like a religion, and open to criticism just like any other choice. If its not a choice then it's acceptable to discriminate based on that characteristic.

I know perfectly well what Judaism means, much more than you do.

No-one is forced to be Jewish but you are born Jewish, just like someone born in Ireland or Scotland would be Irish or Scottish. People can make up their own minds about their identity whether they are Scottish, Irish or Jewish. Some people don't want to be Jewish at all. Some people completely define themselves by it. Just like some people in Scotland or Ireland would say they were British or British-Scottish or Scots-irish or Northern Irish. There are Jewish atheists and Jewish agnostics and Jewish buddhists. By the same token it doesn't matter what you're view is because if the government is making a list of who is and isn't Jewish you will be on it no matter how you identify.

So you are born into it, but you can choose to follow it in any way you like, but you can never really change the fact you are Jewish. Is that an acceptable answer? As I said it doesn't really fit into standard categories in this country.

As for you're last sentence that sounds a bit racist. Being black isn't a choice so is it "acceptable to discriminate based on that characteristic"?

[parsforlife]

So it's that a bad thing then? Is it wrong that the US and UK evacuate its citizens out of warzones then do not help the people affected?

You display the view of a minority of extremists in the country like it reflects the government policy then use that to call the entire state racist. You're entire view around Israel is based around wanting it destroyed and no matter what they do you hate it and find a way to use everything it has ever done to justify you're view of it.

I know perfectly well what Judaism means, much more than you do.

No-one is forced to be Jewish but you are born Jewish, just like someone born in Ireland or Scotland would be Irish or Scottish. People can make up their own minds about their identity whether they are Scottish, Irish or Jewish. Some people don't want to be Jewish at all. Some people completely define themselves by it. Just like some people in Scotland or Ireland would say they were British or British-Scottish or Scots-irish or Northern Irish. There are Jewish atheists and Jewish agnostics and Jewish buddhists. By the same token it doesn't matter what you're view is because if the government is making a list of who is and isn't Jewish you will be on it no matter how you identify.

So you are born into it, but you can choose to follow it in any way you like, but you can never really change the fact you are Jewish. Is that an acceptable answer? As I said it doesn't really fit into standard categories in this country.

As for you're last sentence that sounds a bit racist. Being black isn't a choice so is it "acceptable to discriminate based on that characteristic"?

Apologies my final sentence was meant to have a not in it.

Basically you're saying it's a choice but not a choice. That isn't really acceptable, it is one or the other, it fails basic logic not to.

Edited August 9, 2014 by parsforlife

[adam4267]

Pretty sure he back peddled on his last sentence...anyway look for yourself...

When the children of south Tel Aviv head back to school on Tuesday, kindergarteners will attend facilities that are segregated by race. The children of asylum seekers from sub-Saharan Africa will go to their kindergartens and all the other kids will go to their own. As of this year, the municipality of Israel's most liberal city decided that separate-but-equal for three-to-six year olds was the way to goin 2013.

According to a report published by Ynet (Hebrew edition), the city built the new preschools for black children after Jewish-Israeli residents of the inner city area threatened to keep their children at home rather than allow them to learn how to count, fingerpaint and play on the swings alongside their peers from Eritrea and Sudan.

You distort the truth in every post to call Israel racist.

Poor immigrants come to the country, they live in the cheapest areas and those areas becomes a "ghetto" of sorts. The local authority struggles to cope with their children and build new schools which are used by mostly children of immigrants. The parents aren't happy their children aren't being integrated while some xenophobic parents don't want their children at school with children of immigrants.

That is Petah Tikva and Tel Aviv. It is also the same issue that is happening in Glasgow and Birmingham and London and many other cities int he UK. No one would call the UK a racist and segregated country despite the fact that it is doing the same thing as Israel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19548597 Oh wait, According to The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Schools in the UK are among the most socially segregated in the developed world

[adam4267]

Apologies my final sentence was meant to have a not in it.

Basically you're saying it's a choice but not a choice. That isn't really acceptable, it is one or the other, it fails basic logic not to.

Fair enough

Yes it does fail basic logic but that is the fact. It is a choice but also not a choice. The reason it is illogical is that the decision is made by a wide variety of human beings based on their feelings. It isn't to hard to define Who is a Jew? - although there are a couple of different criteria. But it is pretty hard to say with any degree of certainty what a Jewish person would think about Judaism or what it means to them. I'm sure you've heard the saying that if you put 5 Jews in a room you come out with 6 different opinions.

[THE KING]

You distort the truth in every post to call Israel racist.

Poor immigrants come to the country, they live in the cheapest areas and those areas becomes a "ghetto" of sorts. The local authority struggles to cope with their children and build new schools which are used by mostly children of immigrants. The parents aren't happy their children aren't being integrated while some xenophobic parents don't want their children at school with children of immigrants.

That is Petah Tikva and Tel Aviv. It is also the same issue that is happening in Glasgow and Birmingham and London and many other cities int he UK. No one would call the UK a racist and segregated country despite the fact that it is doing the same thing as Israel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19548597 Oh wait, According to The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development [/size]Schools in the UK are among the most socially segregated in the developed world[/size]

woeful...we dont allow only people of a certain religion to come here unlike Israel and we certainly dont steralize them without their knowledge unlike Israel.

Edited August 9, 2014 by THE KING

[adam4267]

woeful...we dont allow only people of a certain religion to come here unlike Israel and we certainly dont steralize them without their knowledge unlike Israel.

And which religions aren't allowed allowed to move to Israel? Not that I'm advocating it, but Ethiopian immigrants were given temporary birth control they weren't sterilized. And the Israeli government changed the rules on it which is what the article YOU posted actually said. I'm certainly not a doctor so don't know if there were medical grounds for it. Yet another overblown hyperbole you use to try and delegitimize a county you hate

[THE KING]

And which religions aren't allowed allowed to move to Israel? Not that I'm advocating it, but Ethiopian immigrants were given temporary birth control they weren't sterilized. And the Israeli government changed the rules on it which is what the article YOU posted actually said. I'm certainly not a doctor so don't know if there were medical grounds for it. Yet another overblown hyperbole you use to try and delegitimize a county you hate

There are no medical grounds for giving contraception injections ,some long acting (sterilisation )to women without their knowledge.

As for religions that are not allowed into Israel....(unless you are Jewish of course you are by law gaurenteed entry)

The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 is an Israeli law first passed on 31 July 2003 and most recently extended in June 2008.[1] The law makes citizens of Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen (i.e. family reunification).