mcruic

Thanks - I am assuming if Danderhall are back in the Premier, that would leave a 12-11-13-13, so another team possibly moving from Div. 1 to the Championship to make it 12-12-12-13. Possibly Mill AFC?

Attempting to update some of the info for my results/tables site at Scot Scores. Any idea what the 20/21 setup will be? Musselburgh Windsor saying they are in a new "Championship", but said they don't know the full setup and to wait for LEAFA to Tweet about it (so how do they know what league they are playing in if LEAFA haven't released something already?). Also, what is with the "Lothian" name for Tier 2 and the "Edinburgh" name for Tier 3? Last season, 44 teams lasted until Covid. Premier (9) Lothian - West (7) East (9) Edinburgh - West (10) East (9) As far as I can tell: West Barns Star are calling it a day. Lauriston Thistle have folded, but their name lives on in the Sunday League (Newhaven North rebranding themselves Lauriston Thistle for 20/21). There are some new entries: Loganlea United join from Stirling & District Carrick, Penicuik, Restalrig and Loanhead Miners are new teams. So, I make that 44 - 2 + 5 = 47 teams for next season. Any other new teams/teams leaving? Any idea what the league structure will be? Premier/Championship then a Tier 3 split into 2 conferences? Are any clubs wanting to go to the juniors/East of Scotland League in the near future? Or would any currently be able facility-wise?

Just trying to update league makeups for *next season on the new Scot Scores website I've set up. http://scotscores.theroonba.com/ If anyone has any other info about INS or OUTS or name changes, etc. for any leagues, please let me know! WINTER Aberdeenshire IN: Fyvie (from North East Scotland Welfare) OUT: Rothie Rovers (to North Region Juniors) *MS United scratched last season - will they be back? Ayrshire IN: ? OUT: ? *Mossblown Boswell scratched last season - will they be back? Border IN: ? OUT: ? Caledonian IN: Saint Joseph’s FP (from Scottish AFL) OUT: Viewfield Rovers (joined Strathclyde Saturday Morning - using West of Scotland FC players), Weir Recreation (joined Greater Glasgow Premier) Central Scottish IN: ? OUT: Newton Vale (folded), Craigneuk (joined Greater Glasgow Premier) *Colville Park and Falkirk Community scratched last season - will they be back? Dundee Saturday Morning IN: ? OUT: ? *Ardler and Riverside Athletic scratched last season - will they be back? Glasgow & District Saturday Morning IN: Baillieston Thistle, Glebe Hibernian, Dean Park, East Kilbride Harp, FC 2013, Saint Francis OUT: ? Glasgow Colleges IN: DTI (from Strathclyde Saturday Morning) OUT: ? Greater Glasgow Premier IN: Craigneuk (from Central Scottish), Vale of Leven Amateurs (previously Argyle, from Scottish AFL), Houston United (from Scottish AFL), Weir Recreation (from Caledonian) OUT: ? *Crookston Castle and Baillieston United scratched last season - will they be back? Kingdom of Fife IN: Bridge of Earn (from North East Scotland Welfare), Kirkcaldy Albion, Blairhall Villa, Hearts of Beath, Kettle United, Kincardine (from Stirling & District), Leslie Hearts, Newburgh Amateurs OUT: AM Soccer Club (merged with Cupar Hearts - taking on Cupar Hearts name) NAME CHANGES: Fossoway become Kinross Colts. Existing Kinross Colts become Kinross Colts B. Lothian & Edinburgh IN: Penicuik, Restalrig, Carrick, Loanhead Miners, Loganlea United (from Stirling & District) OUT: Lauriston Thistle (folded - Newhaven North of the Lothian & Edinburgh Sunday Amateurs have now taken on the Lauriston Thistle name) Midlands IN: ? OUT: ? *Polonia Dundee scratched last season - will they be back? Perthshire IN: Fair City OUT: Bridge of Earn (to Kingdom of Fife), Auchterarder Primrose (folded) Scottish AFL IN: Arthurlie U21, Baljaffray OUT: Saint Joseph's FP (joined Caledonian), Argyle (now Vale of Leven Amateurs, joined Greater Glasgow Premier), Houston United (joined Greater Glasgow Premier) Stirling & District IN: ? OUT: Loganlea United (joined Lothian & Edinburgh), Kincardine (joined Kingdom of Fife) *Carbrain Boys scratched last season - will they be back? Strathclyde Evangelical Churches IN: ? OUT: ? * Woodhill scratched last season - will they be back? Strathclyde Saturday Morning IN: Plains, Vale of Clyde Amateurs, Wishaw Rangers, Viewfield Rovers (from Caledonian - joined with West of Scotland), Port Glasgow Celtic, Glasgow Wellington, East Lane, Dormy Forest, Blackhill Brae, Blairmore Athletic OUT: DTI (joined Glasgow Colleges), Barshaw (folded?), Ashfield Amateurs (folded?), Springburn Thistle (folded?), West of Scotland (joined with Viewfield Rovers, from Caledonian) * Lenzie Thistle scratched last season - will they be back? SUMMER Caithness IN: ? OUT: ? Inverness & District IN: Gairloch/Aultbea United (from Skye & Lochalsh), Conon Bridge, Highland Aviation, Black Isle United OUT: Loch Ness (joined North Caledonian), Bellmac, Culbokie, Police, Korrie, North Kessock Hotel, Escobar (all folded?) Lewis & Harris IN: ? OUT: ? North West Sutherland IN: ? OUT: ? Orkney IN: ? OUT: ? Shetland IN: ? OUT: ? Shetland Works IN: ? OUT: ? Skye & Lochalsh IN: ? OUT: Glenelg (folded?), Gairloch/Aultbea United (joined Inverness & District) Uist & Barra IN: ? OUT: ?

If they're going to split it, why don't they just leave it as it is with 2 divisions of 8 and 9 and have more competitive leagues? Play each other 3 times - 21 games for top division, 24 for bottom. Not really much point in a Lochee United v Forfar Albion or Carnoustie Panmure v Coupar Angus league match. Also, apart from the Tayside league containing 1 team from Fife, the Lothian league contains 3 from Clackmannanshire/Falkirk. Not sure what was wrong with the North/South names unless they're thinking of splitting up and forming 2 separate regions.

No crowds of less than 300 would be a start.

Not making things up - I calculated it using 2018/19 attendance figures and dividing Leagues 1 and 2 up north/south. 15 of the 20 teams had higher attendances on average than they did with north and south teams included. The teams with lower crowds tended to be around the north/south dividing line. And yes, the average attendance is something like 485. 5 teams have average attendances below 500. Most of Albion Rovers' matches were in the 200s or 300s, with one being just 145. The point is, the crowds are pretty low. Higher crowds bring in more money, so it does matter when crowds are so low. Edinburgh City crowds have gone up as a result of being promoted. Yes. Not necessarily because they are playing nationwide - their crowds would have gone up even if they had been promoted to a League 1 South.

If you can't get your Wick wet on Wednesday in Wick, you can always get soaked thoroughly through in Thurso on a Thursday.

I typed Volgograd instead of Vladivostok - good to know people are paying attention to off-topic posts! It's the equivalent of Raith Rovers going to Ho Chi Minh City or Lima for a league match.

I accept the clubs don't seem to want it. In 2018-19, most of the clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 would have had higher attendances (by 5-20%) if the leagues had been split north/south. There would also be less travel. Maybe 5 or 6 at the boundaries of the north/south "divide" would have had slightly lower attendances. But that doesn't seem to be enough for them to go for it - so I can accept that. Another main reason is because of the way the league structure is - you've got 11 of the 20 teams with some kind of "action" at the end of the season (promoted/play-offs/relegated). With 2 regional divisions, you might only have 6 clubs in these positions (2 promoted, 2 promotion play-offs, 2 relegation play-offs). Not many other countries have teams one place above mid-table playing in promotion play-offs. So I can see the attraction of the current setup for the teams that are in it. But attendances of 200 (or less) don't really show that things are working for some clubs.

I did mention above I'd veered off topic It was originally because some posters on this thread had said that clubs should be ready to travel nationally once they reached a certain level, and I was trying to point out that Scotland really shouldn't have 4 national divisions, and clubs should be able to play regionally higher up the pyramid than they do now. Many clubs pointing to travel issues as reasons they don't want to join the pyramid - so it's relevant in that aspect.

In the 2nd tier (national), Luch Vladivostok to Baltika Kaliningrad is just the 1,366 miles (5 hour flight or 25 hour drive). Luch have an average home crowd of 1,900, which is about the same as Raith Rovers. The approximate equivalent for Raith Rovers would be going to a league match in Vienna.

As to junior football and the future - which I've ever so slightly veered away from - Tayside Juniors need to get themselves in somewhere before they get left out. Doesn't matter at the moment if it's North or South, they should be initiating discussions because it's inevitable there won't be any junior scene for them to play in in the not too distant future. In terms of Scotland, most of the Tayside clubs are in the south geographically (of a line drawn right through the middle of the mainland). Having lived in Perthshire, I considered it central. If anything, I considered it easier to get to Edinburgh than anywhere in the North. Clubs south of Tayside will obviously consider it "North" while those in the north will consider it "south".

What about at Tier 2 (which is North/South) - How is it to get from, for example, Llandudno to the "south of the north" - i.e. Llanidloes or Penrhyncoch? I can see the FAW just took over down to Tier 3 in the Welsh Pyramid, which has 4 newly formed leagues. So FAW now in charge of leagues with 108 clubs compared to just the 76 in Scotland.

I'd say attendances do reflect travel in that the local derbies have higher crowds as there are more travelling fans and more interest in general. As for the comparison with England - it's valid, as it doesn't matter what the population is - it's the interest in football. Also, I'm not comparing tier to tier - I'm acknowledging that because of Scotland's smaller population, there will be smaller crowds. Once the crowds go down to the 1,000 mark, a national league is not viable. England's about 1.5 times bigger than Scotland, so even if you adjust this figure down by a factor 1.5, you get something like 600 as an average crowd for the Tier 6 regionalised leagues in England - which is still higher than the Tier 4 national league in Scotland. Attendances also translate to finances that help cover travel costs.

A wee table for all those people that think clubs should be prepared to travel nationally, or who might even think a national "conference" at Tier 5 is possible. England, where there's much more money in the game, goes regional at Tier 6, when the clubs start getting average attendances of around 1,000. In Scotland, this happens at Tier 3, but there's another whole national division below this, whose attendances are on a par with Tier 7 in England, which is already at the second stage of regionalisation. Scotland only splits in 2 when the attendances start to get to around the 200 mark.

I didn't really think this one through. I meant with regard to the players being based in the south travelling to away matches and not having to travel to the matches from Elgin. I don't know how it works - do the whole squad from the South come up to Elgin to train during the week and do they all convene in Elgin together before travelling to away games?

The clubs from the Argyll & Bute area could easily form their own league without having to travel across to Glasgow or East Kilbride every 2 week. Many of them are in the same league anyway, in different divisions. Clubs like Brechin and Elgin will just have to learn to adapt - and recruit more local players. If they can't have success with the players they can find, they'll get relegated. Or - they can stop saying "we are against regionalisation of the lower tiers" when financially, and geographically, and with the paltry crowds they get at that level, it makes perfect sense to regionalise below the Championship. The only reason they need to recruit from so far away is to save money on travel.

Football is clearly the most popular game in Scotland, but for some reason the turnover for the SFA is around 35-40 million per annum, while the SRU's turnover was 61 million in 2018-19. The SFA distributes about a third of its turnover as payouts to its members (11 million quid per year). Not sure how far down this goes, or if members means "member clubs" or "member organisations" also. The SRU has given an average of 3 million quid per year to grassroots rugby over the last 5 years.

I find it interesting that some junior/now senior teams are baulking at travel, but you've got teams like Fort William who seem to manage somehow despite very little success and despite the added costs of Highland League membership. Kinlochleven is only 22 miles away from Fort William, and their amateur team (South Lochaber Thistle) - who incidentally beat Fort William away in a 2018 pre-season friendly - play in the Greater Glasgow Premier Amateur League - where pretty much every away match is a 100-mile trip. I'm sure they've got a lot of players from the Glasgow area in the team, but they do play at home - and clubs have to travel the 100 miles to Kinlochleven to play them. You've also got Lochgilphead Red Star playing in the Scottish Amateur Football League - where many teams are from the Glasgow area, 90-100 miles away. There's also other teams from out west in that league - Campbeltown, Dunoon, etc. Campbeltown to Glasgow is over 130 miles. You've also got Rothesay and Rhu in the Caledonian Amateur League, which also has teams from Stirlingshire - 60 or 70 mile trips. These teams have played in these leagues for years. So, how do these amateur teams manage to find the funds to travel year in year out? Fewer overheads giving them more money to spend on travelling? Something else?

Yeah - lot more congestion going south - and possibly midweek matches compounded the issue. One reason why they didn't join the North when they first thought about it was that the route up the leagues would have meant starting at the bottom, which at that time was filled with Moray teams.

Midlands league might be a good idea as a kind of "borderland" league - I think if we're going to keep the HL/LL boundary, then the ML teams should probably be given the choice of which one they go to should they make Tier 5 (Montrose going North, Inverkeithing south). All depends whether Fife teams can stomach travelling to Angus or vice versa.

Montrose Roselea benefitted from joining the North Juniors due to their geography, and the fact they played in a regionwide league (ERSJA Premier, which had some 100-mile trips to the Lothians. Their average travel distance in the North Superleague is about 56 miles - which is actually more than it would be if they went back to the ERSJFA now with its Tayside/Lothian structure. Their longest trip would be 45 miles to Scone. It's actually not that much less travelling than they had in the ERSJFA Premier on average (56 miles compared to 71), despite their statement at the time describing it as if they were travelling hundreds of miles further than they would in the North.

Do you mean at Tier 6? There's East, South and West already at Tier 6 - currently no North at Tier 6. So would you advocate 5 leagues at Tier 6 (North, Midlands, South, East and West)? Are you also saying, based in or around Dundee, that you'd prefer to travel slightly further to your away games? What would be your main reason for going north rather than south?

These are the current catchment areas of the "north" (juniors + highland), tayside, "east", "west" and "south" of Scotland leagues. The yellow dots are their population centres, where more of the teams are based. I'm not making the argument about travelling time for clubs on the boundaries - you are. I'm making the argument that ALL current Tayside clubs would have less travelling in the LL feeders than in the HL feeders, even if most of the teams in the HL feeders are from one of the closer places to Tayside, Aberdeen. So it wouldn't strike me as odd that any Tayside club might choose to go south rather than north. I gave an example of this, along with travel distances which showed they'd cut 15 or 20 miles off their average travel times in the south compared to in the north - even if we take out Wick and Brora.

That's not strictly true - you have to go by clusters of teams, not outliers (like Stonehaven and Wick). The cluster of teams in Tayside is closer to that of Fife/Lothian than it is to the Aberdeen/Moray cluster - hence why most Tayside clubs would have less travelling if they joined Tier 6 in the south than if they joined in the north. The net travel increase would be greater for clubs in general if the Tayside clubs were put in the north. No Tayside clubs apart from Montrose Roselea left the East Juniors for the North. Especially when you look at the "clusters of teams who'll probably progress beyond the bottom tier", most of these are in the Dundee area. I know there's an imbalance of clubs towards the south, but that's because there are 3 natural regions - north/west/east - based on the number of senior/junior clubs in each region, and because they're cramming 2 (East and West) into 1. It's a separate issue, and moving all of Tayside north doesn't solve it. It's not immediately obvious that Tayside is north of the "middle" - most of the clubs are in the southern part of the Scottish mainland as a whole (only Montrose and Brechin are north of the geographical "Centre of Mainland Scotland"). Many of the Tayside clubs are from Dundee or just outside (8 of the 17), with 6 from Angus and 3 from Perthshire (including Scone, who are further south than Luncarty). It's important also to ask the Tayside clubs and not just those from clubs further south, who all seem to have opinions. I'm originally from Perthshire - I'd consider it in the middle, but there's a feeling that it's easier to get south, especially once you get to Perth. Also, when reorganisation of junior football took place, Tayside clubs were grouped with the Lothian and Fife clubs, not with the North clubs.