mcruic

Yeah, I thought regionalisation at Tier 7 would be better too, but I went with what EoS is doing at the moment - which is no regionalisation. Another problem is if we use Tayside as North, and the rest as South, below the top level, the 60 remaining teams would be divided 41-19 in favour of the South. That could be balanced to 31-29 in favour of the North if Tayside + Fife was North and Lothian + Borders was South. Then there would be even less travelling for the likes of Whitburn, as they'd only have to play Lothian teams, and would avoid having to travel to distant Fife... Here's how a 1-2-2 structure would look. Whitburn playing mostly Lothian teams in first year, and if they got promoted, more of the same. So only at Tier 6 might they encounter some trips to the other side of the world.

Alright. Blairgowrie is closer to the whole of Fife, Falkirk, Stirling, West Lothian, Midlothian and Edinburgh, and a lot of North Lanarkshire than it is to Aberdeen, which is where most of the North Junior clubs are concentrated around.

Also, in England it's a bit different, as the North covers the Top 2/3 of the country geographically, with the South being the bottom 1/3. They had some problems with the system - it's now gone to 1 North, 2 Midlands (North and South) and 1 South, which gives a bit of fluidity to the middle, overlapping part. So it actually now makes a (bit) more sense - 1 national non-league league, 2 regional below it, and 4 below that. I suppose Scotland is kind of doing similar - only Tier 6 is shaping up to be a 6-league thing rather than 4 and there is no leeway for the middle part to join either the LL or HL, depending on balance of clubs.

I can understand travel concerns, but in the old EOS Superleague days, there were only 4 or 5 Tayside teams in the league at a time. So you've got 5 trips a season of between 50 and 80 miles, 1- 1.5 hours travelling max. You already had a few trips of 40+ miles last year playing in the ERJFA with the Fife teams, so an extra 80-100 miles over the space of 3 or 4 games isn't going to break the bank. With proper fixture scheduling, these matches would be on Saturdays, and would avoid the (single) midweek evening kick off in Forfar that everyone seems to keep bemoaning. Forfar WE and Carnoustie are the only Angus sides most teams would have to worry about, as Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics and Forfar Albion aren't showing many signs of being top teams in Tayside in the near future and would be plugging away in the Tayside division. If the East Juniors all joined the EoS League tomorrow, the leagues would be regionalised at the bottom - so there would be a separate Lothian/Fife division and Tayside division, just as there is now. Only the bigger teams would have to travel more, but they'd have an even spread of Lothian/Fife and Tayside teams in their league - it's not like it's going to be one West Lothian team in a league with 15 Tayside teams. Also, the "outliers" (Arbroath Vics, Brechin Vics) are not likely to be playing at the top inter-regional level - they'll be in the Tayside league, as they are now. For example, if Whitburn joined, they'd be playing the same teams they are playing now, plus a few more from the Lothians and a couple from the Borders. If Whitburn were promoted, their likely opponents would mostly be from Lothian and Fife. There's probably only ever going to be a max of 4 or 5 Tayside teams at either Tier 6 or Tier 7. So I think the travel concerns of West Lothian teams don't really amount to much. If modest teams like Crossgates Primrose can join and travel to the Borders, I'm pretty sure teams with bigger support like Whitburn would soon be having success and wondering what all the fuss was about. All in all, it would make very little difference to most of the remaining juniors in terms of travelling distance, but would make a huge difference in access to funding, development and licensing opportunities, better fixture scheduling, and a more professional setup. Also, they could play in the regional Tier 8 for as long as they want and just refuse promotion - the same as what they are doing now.

So Stranraer would be more suited to play in a UK league than a Russian one. You've just made the point. If the Perthshire and Dundee clubs are closer to the Central Belt than they are to most of Aberdeenshire, why should they play in a league with Aberdeenshire teams?

But the team numbers can never truly be balanced if there is already an imbalance in terms of the number of teams in each catchment area below Tier 5. At the moment, you have 17 teams officially in the HL pyramid vs 147 in the LL pyramid.

Blairgowrie is closer to Falkirk than all teams in the North with the exception of Stonehaven.

I still think there's room for negotiation as to where Tayside clubs go - it should be up to them which part of the pyramid they wish to join. I think if/when the West Lothian juniors join the EoS and the North Juniors join (nominally or otherwise) the HL pyramid, the Tayside clubs will have to make a decision on their future direction, as it's not possible to have an SJFA with only 17 clubs, all in Tayside. There's also a lot of historical quirks that have been cemented with the pyramid (e.g. the fact that SoS and North Caley are essentially amateur leagues, but have 1 or 2 senior clubs in them). Many SoS clubs are Tier 8 at best, but they're placed at Tier 6 beside the West Junior giants. Having Auchinleck Talbot and Creetown at the same level of the pyramid just seems madness. Hopefully it will all sort itself out in time, but I don't think putting leagues at artificially high levels helps things.

The North/South split remained more because the pyramid was mainly for the existing senior clubs, which were essentially the Highland league, and EoS and SoS leagues. There were North and South qualifying cups for the Scottish Cup. So there was already a sense of North/South as the accepted division below the SFL/SPFL, as no West/Tayside/Fife clubs were involved. The split at the Tay was largely illustrative, as there were no teams from near this area that had to be accommodated. Now with the balance of non-league football shifting, we have a bloated "South", with many of the best teams, and Tayside still in limbo, technically playing in an association with "South" teams (the ERSJFA), but in a "North" division. The North/South split should probably be revisited, and a proper study done on what it would mean for Tayside clubs (and those who have to play them) if they joined either the LL or HL structures. The fact that all the bodies above came up with 10 team HL/LL divisions shows they weren't really thinking of a future where all the juniors would join. You don't have 10-team leagues at the top of any decent pyramid, as it constrains access below it for any progressive teams (as the 10-team SPFL League 2 currently does to aspiring Tier 5 teams). If we look at how Scotland is divided for statistical purposes by the EU, it's South West, East, North East (Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire) and Highlands/Islands. The first 3 correspond to the 3 junior divisions, while the last corresponds to the Highland/North Caledonian league. Tayside comes under East. Tayside clubs seem to be happier being in with Edinburgh/Lothian teams at the moment (rather than being in the North region). If not, they'd be a "South" division within the North Juniors rather than a "North" division within the East juniors.

Person A: "I think Tayside clubs would have less travel in the LL area than the HL area, and here are some examples to illustrate what I am saying" Person B: "You're a spreadsheet pyramidista, approaching things with a semi and an Excel sheet, you're a patronising arse" Person A: "You can disagree, but do you need to insult?" Person B: "Grow up" Can you see what's wrong with Person B saying "grow up" here? If you can't, I'm sure everyone else can. But thanks for your really helpful suggestion anyway. Must be great to be as wise as you!

Yeah - I'm updating as news of the new setups comes in. Once the setups are decided, the main task will be entering the results every week. A couple of leagues in the Glasgow area have already announced their setups for next season. Website is now at http://scotscores.theroonba.com/

Thanks - of course you are right. My point was that teams from further south than Dundee would have less travelling than Wick would. Use Edinburgh instead of Hawick. It was in response to "if Dundee teams have less travel than Wick, then they can join the HL". Likewise for Edinburgh teams then. I was trying to point out the flaw in that argument - unfortunately, I picked a bad example. But the point remains. Wick is an outlier and they can't be used as a gauge for what teams can join the Highland League catchment area.

Sigh... Just quit with the insults. That's all I ask. Disagree with me, but keep your playground shit at home.

I'll answer your points. What actually changed about the pyramid with the creation of the WoSFL? It opened the pyramid up to 1/3 of Scotland's non-league clubs, and the whole of the former Strathclyde, which had previously no connection to the pyramid (Whether or not it "could have" in the past is irrelevant - it did in the present, and it counts as a big change). The SPFL's still the same, the Lowland & Highland League is still the same, the EoSFL is the same, the SoSFL is the same minus one club. Not talking about the Top 5 tiers - that's not the point here. The EoSFL is not the same - in 2016/17 and 2017/18 it was a single division of 11 and 13 clubs respectively. Now it is a thriving league with a top tier, and a second tier of 2 conferences, with 49 clubs. Every single one of the EoS clubs from the 2016/17 league played in the lower conferences in 2019/20. Quite clearly not the same league... The SoSFL is the same - I'll give you that one. Does an addition count as a complete change? In a word, yes. As outlined above, addition (of clubs or entire leagues) quite clearly constitutes significant change. Addition of the Lowland League was a complete change. All of these big changes have happened in the last 7 years, and the latest 2 have happened in 2 years. In any case, if you don't count "addition" as change, then it would be relatively easy to sell to those who remain outside the pyramid - hey, there is no change, let's just add you. But that's not proving to be the case. So they clearly see it as a big change, even though in reality, most of the smaller teams would be playing the same teams in any new structure.

You seem to take me for some nerdy kiddo - I know exactly what this is, and don't need it explained to me about "reality" and "never going to happen". I know how things are - as with many things in life, many of the problems stem from having complete muppets in positions of authority. In order to propose a structure - first someone has to come up with something, from outside or inside the "circle" - then approach the clubs. If you approach the clubs first, you will get many opposing views. Clubs need something presented to them that they can agree or disagree with, and then be given the chance to give reasons for their disagreement if they disagree. These fears can then be taken on board, or allayed, or a bit of both. When you vote in a national election, you are not given free choice - you are presented with a list of options. This list of options is not drawn up by the people who vote. The reason it's taken so long for anything to get to this stage is precisely because of many of the "real clubs" and the short-sightedness and false allegiance to "grades". They have been the obstacle to the progression of a pyramid system rather than the solution. And the very reason we have this incremental change and reluctance for others to join is because of the way the pyramid is being formed - in fits and starts. I know in "reality" things have not happened smoothly - but to me that doesn't mean giving up on the possibility and accepting the "wisdom of the committees". And seeing as you are a fan of pointless putdowns: Approaching it with "a semi and an Excel file" is much better than approaching it impotently with no file... As is evidenced by this thread being 1621 pages long. Much of which is putdowns of people trying to come up with workable solutions rather than constructive discussions about which parts of the proposed solutions are problematic, and how they could be resolved. Which is what this thread should be about. Nobody cares about your "it will never work" if you don't have a plan of your own.

Your sentence smacked of condescension, whatever you may think, or whatever name-calling you wish to engage in. Lack of respect for what you perceive as "spreadsheet pyramidistas". They've got as much right to get into the debate about the structure of Scottish football as anyone involved with the clubs. Members of the public not directly involved often talk more sense than those at the clubs. And some of them will be producing the fixture lists and doing other "spreadsheety" things without which the clubs wouldn't have functioning leagues to play in. The structure that you talk about - it just completely changed, wholesale, in the West Juniors in just a few months. So of course you can change it. The century before means nothing now - all these clubs are in the senior pyramid, and they jumped ship all at once, completely wiping out the "structure that had developed organically" in an instant. So bollocks to the previously entrenched views and vested interests that these clubs had towards the pyramid - they were steamrollered out of the way. It's the biggest single evidence that rapid change can and does happen. East Juniors leaving en masse to go the EoS is another example of rapid change. The shift has not been slow. The Lowland part of the pyramid was set up only 7 years ago, and now it contains more than half the former SJFA clubs, the vast majority of whom have left in the last 2 years. 2 years is all it has taken to completely change the structure of Junior and Senior football.

Final, at Hampden 1 Motherwell 5-0 Dunfermline Athletic

Semi-finals, at Hampden 1 Motherwell 2-1 Celtic 2 Peterhead 1-3 Dunfermline Athletic

QUARTER-FINALS 1 Arbroath 0-2 Dunfermline Athletic 2 Rangers 1-2 Celtic 3 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 0-1 Motherwell AET 4 Peterhead 1-0 Ayr United

Last 16 1 Livingston 2-4 Rangers 2 Celtic 6-0 Partick Thistle 3 Motherwell 2-0 Ross County 4 Peterhead 2-1 Falkirk 5 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 5-1 Hibernian 6 Airdrieonians 2-2 Ayr United AET, Ayr United 5-4 on pens 7 Arbroath 3-1 Heart of Midlothian 8 Dunfermline Athletic 2-0 Raith Rovers

Last 32 Premiership teams come in here. 4 non-league clubs left: Brora (Highland), Bonyrigg & East Stirlingshire (Lowland), Kilwinning (WoS) 1 Saint Mirren 1-3 Airdrieonians 2 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 5-1 Alloa Athletic 3 Stranraer 0-2 Dunfermline Athletic 4 Hibernian 5-0 Albion Rovers 5 East Stirlingshire 0-4 Ross County 6 Raith Rovers 3-1 Brora Rangers 7 Celtic 4-0 Saint Johnstone 8 Ayr United 0-0 Dundee United AET, Ayr United 4-2 on pens 9 Aberdeen 1-3 Rangers 10 Hamilton Academical 1-2 Motherwell 11 Forfar Athletic 0-1 Falkirk 12 Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Kilmarnock 13 Arbroath 1-0 Montrose 14 Stirling Albion 0-9 Livingston 15 Peterhead 1-0 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic 16 Kilwinning Rangers 0-3 Partick Thistle

5TH ROUND Championship clubs enter here Scores will be updated as matches are played. 1 Airdrieonians 3-1 Auchinleck Talbot 2 Buckie Thistle 0-3 Partick Thistle 3 Stranraer 3-2 East Fife 4 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic 1-0 Nairn County 5 Inverness Caledonian Thistle 3-1 Dundee 6 BSC Glasgow 0-3 Montrose 7 Civil Service Strollers 0-6 Ayr United 8 Whitehill Welfare 2-3 Albion Rovers 9 Blantyre Victoria 1-3 East Stirlingshire 10 Peterhead 1-0 Dumbarton 11 Fort William 0-3 Kilwinning Rangers 12 Arbroath 3-0 Stenhousemuir 13 Heart of Midlothian 5-0 Cove Rangers 14 Alloa Athletic 4-1 Queen of the South AET 15 Craigmark Burntonians 0-7 Forfar Athletic 16 Raith Rovers 3-0 Annan Athletic 17 Falkirk 4-0 Clyde 18 Brora Rangers 6-0 Camelon 19 Stirling Albion 2-0 East Kilbride 20 Dunfermline Athletic 2-1 Greenock Morton

4TH ROUND League 1 clubs enter here Scores will be updated as matches are played. 1 Pumpherston 0-3 Clyde 2 Peterhead 4-0 Wick Academy 3 Whitehill Welfare 2-1 Troon 4 Auchinleck Talbot 1-0 Glenafton Athletic 5 Camelon 4-1 Craigroyston 6 Vale of Leithen 1-3 Annan Athletic 7 Clachnacuddin 3-4 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic 8 Cove Rangers 3-0 Forres Mechanics 9 East Fife 1-0 Carnoustie Panmure AET 10 East Kilbride 1-1 Pollok AET, East Kilbride 5-4 on pens 11 Brechin City 1-3 Stranraer 12 Stirling Albion 5-0 Kinnoull 13 Dunbar United 0-1 Stenhousemuir 14 Brora Rangers 5-0 Cumnock 15 Annbank United 1-1 Craigmark Burntonians AET, Craigmark Burntonians 5-4 on pens 16 Forfar Athletic 3-0 Edinburgh City 17 Albion Rovers 1-0 Berwick Rangers 18 Blantyre Victoria 1-0 Shotts Bon Accord 19 Partick Thistle 4-0 Shettleston 20 Elgin City 1-1 Airdrieonians AET, Airdrieonians 5-4 on pens 21 Fraserbugh 1-6 Falkirk 22 Fort William 2-0 Preston Athletic 23 BSC Glasgow 3-0 Turriff United 24 Darvel 0-2 Montrose 25 Nairn County 4-3 Deveronvale 26 Dundonald Bluebell 0-1 East Stirlingshire 27 Civil Service Strollers 3-1 Broughty Athletic 28 Hurlford United 0-2 Dumbarton 29 Buckie Thistle 7-0 Newburgh 30 Dunipace 0-6 Kilwinning Rangers

3RD ROUND First entry of SPFL clubs. Scores will be updated as matches are played. 1 Cumnock 4-1 Banks o' Dee 2 Buckie Thistle 5-2 Beith 3 Annan Athletic 3-1 Musselburgh Athletic 4 Kilwinning Rangers 3-2 Queen's Park 5 Newburgh 2-0 Ormiston 6 Berwick Rangers 7-1 Linlithgow Rose Commnunity 7 Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale 0-1 Broughty Athletic 8 East Stirlingshire 4-0 Neilston 9 Hurlford United 6-0 Sauchie 10 Wick Academy 2-2 Kilbirnie Ladeside AET, Wick Academy 4-2 on pens 11 Rutherglen Glencairn 1-1 Glenafton Athletic AET, Glenafton Athletic 4-2 on pens 12 Stoneywood Parkvale 0-5 Forres Mechanics 13 Shotts Bon Accord 3-0 Saint Anthony's 14 Deveronvale 2-0 Petershill 15 Annbank United 2-0 Downfield 16 Albion Rovers 6-0 Bellshill Athletic 17 Upper Annandale 0-4 Troon 18 Nairn Saint Ninian 0-2 Carnoustie Panmure 19 Pumpherston 2-1 Stirling University 20 Dunipace 5-0 Royal Albert 21 Whitehill Welfare 3-0 East Craigie 22 Edinburgh City 2-0 Keith 23 Dunbar United 3-0 Arthurlie 24 Vale of Leithen 2-1 Jeanfield Swifts AET 25 Stirling Albion 3-0 Johnstone Burgh 26 Fraserburgh United 0-3 Dundonald Bluebell 27 Lochore Welfare 0-1 Turriff United 28 Gartcairn 0-2 Stenhousemuir 29 Greenock 0-1 Fort William 30 Fraserburgh 8-0 New Elgin 31 Pollok 4-2 Huntly 32 Clachnacuddin 1-0 Kelty Hearts 33 Preston Athletic 3-1 Edinburgh University 34 Camelon 4-2 Penicuik Athletic 35 Hill of Beath Hawthorn 0-4 Nairn County 36 Brora Rangers 1-0 Dalkeith Thistle 37 Craigmark Burntonians 1-1 Lochee United AET, Craigmark Burntonians 4-3 on pens 38 Shettleston 2-0 Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts 39 Brechin City 2-0 Dundee North End 40 Civil Service Strollers 2-0 Largs Thistle 41 Auchinleck Talbot 3-0 Burntisland Shipyard 42 East Kilbride 2-1 Cowdenbeath 43 Darvel 3-0 Spartans 44 Craigroyston 1-0 Maryhill 45 Scone Thistle 0-3 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic 46 Renfrew 0-2 BSC Glasgow 47 Blantyre Victoria 3-0 Invergordon 48 Elgin City 6-0 Arniston Rangers 49 Stranraer 4-0 Kennoway Star Hearts 50 Kinnoull 4-0 Carluke Rovers

2nd Round Scores will be updated as matches are played. 1 Benburb 0-3 Wick Academy 2 Rossvale 1-2 Kelty Hearts 3 Fraserburgh United 2-1 Yoker Athletic AET 4 Penicuik Athletic 3-2 Newtongrange Star AET 5 Kilbirnie Ladeside 4-0 Kello Rovers 6 Vale of Leithen 3-1 Blackburn United 7 Royal Albert 2-1 Dalry Thistle AET 8 Beith 1-0 Inverurie Loco Works AET 9 Shettleston 2-1 Armadale Thistle 10 Johnstone Burgh 1-0 Tranent 11 Spartans 3-0 Lossiemouth 12 Petershill 6-0 Whitehills 13 Fraserburgh 2-1 Ashfield 14 Heston Rovers 0-2 Greenock 15 Tayport 0-2 Huntly 16 Musselburgh Athletic 3-1 Bo'ness United 17 Auchinleck Talbot 2-1 Cumbernauld United 18 Edinburgh University 2-1 Rothes AET 19 Neilston 4-0 Dundee Violet 20 Peebles Rovers 0-0 Blantyre Victoria AET, Blantyre Victoria 4-3 on pens 21 Gartcairn 4-0 Ellon United 22 Dufftown 0-6 Kilwinning Rangers 23 Turriff United 2-0 Vale of Clyde 24 Dundonald Bluebell 2-0 Glasgow University 25 Brora Rangers 5-0 Muirkirk 26 Largs Thistle 3-2 Fauldhouse United 27 Kinnoull 2-2 Kilsyth Rangers AET, Kinnoull 5-4 on pens 28 Bathgate Thistle 2-3 Nairn Saint Ninian 29 Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic 1-0 Abbey Vale 30 Dalbeattie Star 1-2 Burntisland Shipyard 31 Kennoway Star Hearts 2-1 Islavale 32 Rothie Rovers 1-4 Shotts Bon Accord 33 Dunbar United 2-0 Vale of Leven 34 Craigroyston 2-1 Buchanhaven Hearts AET 35 Irvine Victoria 1-3 Preston Athletic 36 Buckie Thistle 1-1 Stonehaven AET, Buckie Thistle 4-3 on pens 37 Downfield 2-0 Hermes 38 Whitehill Welfare 4-0 Larkhall Thistle 39 Scone Thistle 3-0 Maud 40 Cumnock 1-0 Kirriemuir Thistle 41 New Elgin 1-0 Luncarty 42 Formartine United 0-3 Pollok 43 East Stirlingshire 4-0 Culter 44 Glenafton Athletic 5-0 Gretna 45 Strathspey Thistle 0-2 East Kilbride 46 Saint Andrews United 0-1 Lochore Welfare 47 Clachnacuddin 2-1 Cumbernauld Colts 48 Deveronvale 3-0 Brechin Victoria 49 East Craigie 5-0 Saint Cadoc's Youth Club 50 Port Glasgow 1-2 Pumpherston 51 Dalkeith Thistle 5-0 Longside 52 Dundee North End 3-0 Leith Athletic 53 Hill of Beath Hawthorn 4-0 Drumchapel United 54 Sauchie 1-1 Saint Duthus AET, Sauchie 5-3 on pens 55 Stoneywood Parkvale 4-1 Glenrothes 56 Fort William 4-1 Buckie Rovers 57 Camelon 3-2 Clydebank 58 Banks o' Dee 2-1 Colony Park 59 Bonar Bridge 0-1 Linlithgow Rose Commnunity 60 Newburgh 4-2 Lochee Harp 61 Annbank United 2-1 Livingston United AET 62 Renfrew 0-0 East End AET, Renfrew 5-3 on pens 63 Berwick Rangers 2-1 Whitletts Victoria 64 Lochmaben 0-1 Upper Annandale 65 Craigmark Burntonians 2-1 Coldstream 66 Wishaw 1-2 Invergordon 67 Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts 2-1 Caledonian Braves 68 Civil Service Strollers 7-0 Syngenta 69 Dunipace 2-1 Thornton Hibs 70 Darvel 4-0 Lesmahagow 71 Maryhill 2-1 Cambuslang Rangers 72 Forfar Albion 0-5 Lochee United 73 Lochar Thistle 0-2 Broughty Athletic 74 Linlithgow Rose 1-2 Forres Mechanics 75 Aberdeen University 1-2 Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale 76 Arniston Rangers 2-1 Golspie Sutherland 77 Keith 4-2 Whitburn 78 Jeanfield Swifts 2-1 Gala Fairydean Rovers 79 Arthurlie 3-1 Montrose Roselea 80 Thorniewood United 1-9 Hurlford United 81 Troon 4-0 Banchory Saint Ternan 82 Carnoustie Panmure 4-0 Alness United 83 Saint Anthony's 2-1 Heriot-Watt University 84 Lugar Boswell Thistle 1-1 Ormiston AET, Ormiston 4-3 on pens 85 Stirling University 4-0 Arbroath Victoria 86 Bonnyton Thistle 0-5 Nairn County 87 BSC Glasgow 4-0 East Kilbride Thistle 88 Carluke Rovers 1-0 Edinburgh South 89 Maybole 2-2 Bellshill Athletic AET, Bellshill Athletic 3-2 on pens 90 Rutherglen Glencairn 3-1 Lochgelly Albert